graphics issues with HOllyhock

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 11 Jul 2013, 06:58

I have a new computer with dual graphics cards. inside it has intel hd graphics 4000 and Geforce nvidia GTX 675MX

I have been trying to get the right setting for hollyhock.
It seems that when I use the intel graphics there is some kind of bottleneck which affects the audio. After a moment or 2 i get crackles in the audio. Hollyhock seems to respond graphically ok however.

When I have the computer use the nvidia GTX i have no spikes and crackles in audio but there are funny artifacts and weird graphics problems.

It seems there is alot of flickering. WHen for instance I try to select something in a combobox it flickers like mad after making a new selection. CLicking on the flickering with the mouse can make it disappear.

Any ideas what this could be caused by?

I tried changing some settings on the nvidia control panel but i am not really sure where to start.

I cant take a picture of it because taking a screen shot does show the flickering behavior.

edit:

when i turn off hardware acceleration in hollyhock the flickering stops.
but the crackles come back!

i also tried disabling intel graphics in the device manager but the clicks come back again.

so i am stuck at flickering graphics but at least no clicks in the audio.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 11 Jul 2013, 09:22

We're working on the graphic optimization , next release will bring solutions
You have installed last DirectX version..?

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 11 Jul 2013, 13:59

Yes latest version. It is a brand new computer
directX 11

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 11 Jul 2013, 17:39

Should I file a bug report ?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 11 Jul 2013, 17:58

maybe you can wait for the next version, if symptoms persist , yes

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 11 Jul 2013, 19:12

Ok thanks for your advice

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 12 Jul 2013, 06:41

i noticed the same flickering behavior in my RME totalmix application.
Rme's current solution is turn off D2D. This for me doesn't seem to be a solution for Hollyhock. THe audio performance becomes unusable when I turn off D2D in HOllyhock. Hopefully there are solutions ahead.

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 12 Jul 2013, 14:21

Hi Seamus,

I also have experienced multiple graphic issues. I have a main using a GTX275/250 dual which is a DX10 shader 4.0. This comes up in a GDI mode (Never had graphics issues on this machine, RME TotalMix works fantastic). My AIO touchscreen has an Intel HD graphics card that comes up as D2D and DX11 compatible. Both exhibit the same type of graphics glitches/flickers, slow updates. I am in faith that an optimization will be the only correction...Would be nice to have some ability to modify a config in HollyHock to switch modes or modify some graphic settings. On the Nvidia side with DX10 Ive used application specific settings in all different configurations and was not able to get any visible improvement in any configuration for HollyHock.

-S

Unread post by **oli_lab** » 12 Jul 2013, 18:44

one day I was playing with physics, I had the workspace panels that were flying around isntead of the objets in the draw panel...

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 12 Jul 2013, 20:46

im happy to know im not the only one
Senso and the team will sort it out.

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 12 Jul 2013, 21:05

that is funny oli....I agree I know they will get sorted out....very excited to keep evolving.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 12 Jul 2013, 21:09

yes hollyhock is going to be amazing and that day is getting closer and closer!

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 21 Jul 2013, 17:20

Hi seamus...could you point me to an example patch or workspace which gives you the issues.

I've got a few varying setups I'd like to correlate with yours (Nvidia GTX275/250 dual running Dx11 (Dx10 hardware max but in GDI mode), and Samsung AIO7 (running in Dx mode).

Check out my post regarding Step Position...in the patch area.
I have a few workspaces Id be interested in you trying to see your results. I am getting really curious about our approaches and the clocking/calculations and affect on graphics. Hopefully on to something here who knows...we will get there.

-S

waolelaid · Unread post by **waolelaid** » 22 Jul 2013, 06:43

Hi i didn't know that "sensomusic" sold also shoes

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 22 Jul 2013, 08:54

Iococoi solved my problem for me. It was a beta graphics update for nvidia GeForce.
My driver was the latest but not the beta which maybe addresses some issues.

All seems well now. I am so happy. Thanks again to the Usine community. I am very happy and proud to be a part of this group of take Ted and helpful musicians/ technocrats/ designers!

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 22 Jul 2013, 09:09

@waolelaid:

, yes, i've delete this spam post

@seamus: glad to hear those good news

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 25 Jul 2013, 01:59

Good News Here!!! I updated to beta this morning for my GTX275/250 which did not fix the GDI+ and lagging graphics....but Disabling Hardware acceleration finally gave me D2D and smooth graphics!!!!

I am stoked! Thanks for the Update Senso!
I am finally able to start diggin in properly!

-S

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 25 Jul 2013, 08:37

Great, good news !

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 28 Jul 2013, 00:45

Hmm, seems disabling Hardware Acceleration for improved graphics is coming at a price...Audio suffers horribly in this case...lots of clipping and pops.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 30 Jul 2013, 10:31

I am afraid I spoke too soon without sufficient testing.
I am still having the flickering problems. It seems that when I installed the beta driver some settings were changed and
Hollyhock was reverting back to the intel graphics without my knowing.
I have been touring and teaching and didnt have time to properly test. My first day off today though I realized the problem still exists.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 30 Jul 2013, 22:11

If I tell the computer to use Nvidia for hollyhock I get flickering. If I tell it to use intel graphics I get audio problems like sephult.
So its good graphics bad audio or bad graphics and good audio.

and sephult I have flickering and weirdness in every instance of hollyhock no matter what the workspace is.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 01 Aug 2013, 12:40

Unfortunately it comes from a driver issue
"Nvidia flickering" gives half a million of answer on google... Generally can be solved by different ways.

about conflicts between Intel graphics and audio, it's not normal.
- try to change your USB port if you have and USB sound card.
the Intel card is enough powerful to run Usine. Try to look in this direction?

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 01 Aug 2013, 12:43

Hi senso, unfortunately I am not using USB audio on this end. I have RME PCI Hammerfall DSP running and still receive crackling audio using D2D in this setup. As seamus says, GDI + Audio is good without crackling however my performance such as in the Syncro...skips numbers or refresh is compromised (I do not receive flickers), but when I do use D2D it improves and is smooth transitioning. Playing audio back however it crackles and sounds bad.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 01 Aug 2013, 13:20

RME PCI Hammerfall DSP
so it's probably an IRQ conflict between your NVIDIA and RME (I had exactly the same pb by the past)
try to change PCI slots?

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 01 Aug 2013, 13:25

don't forget that Usine is not necessary responsible for all the disasters of the world...
trust me, NVIDIA is a one of the biggest disaster...

did you try a bug report on NVIDIA support page?

ps:On my last Mac-mini the Nvidia was incompatible with RME firewire, so I was obliged to resell it...

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 02 Aug 2013, 02:04

Maybe I can just bypass nvidia. Or get a different graphic card. I will find away. Usine is too good to give up on.

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 02 Aug 2013, 02:35

I agree Senso....well here is a straight forward question...Is Dx11 Hardware a requirement for HollyHock?

I am finding it hard to muster going to Nvidia about problems when I have never had a graphic issue (Sonar X2/Ableton 8, Serif Movie and graphics user). I will however approach. My assumptions at this moment is that HollyHock is a Dx11 Hardware only (regardless of graphic card manufacturer). Yes you might be able to run it...but not as intended? I was not aware of this when I had purchased and still have not seen a requirement announced saying you do or don't require Dx11 Hardware.

I am definitely not blaming Usine at all...don't think I am coming down on the program....it is fantastic and I love the capability and to see it evolve....I do understand the technology involved too...to tell you the truth if you could assure me which Graphic card requirements I should go with I would probably invest to run. I was just not aware I would be needing to go this route...and I just want to be assured.

I will be looking into the PCI IRQ....and see if I can find any resolution there. Regardless I'd like to hear some requirements and do what I can to move along efficiently

Thanks for the reply

-S

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 02 Aug 2013, 02:51

I will try swapping PCI slot if I have one available (however, I think I only have one). The IRQ listings are not being shared by Nvidia and RME they are utilizing different IRQ assignments.

Mothballs · Unread post by **Mothballs** » 02 Aug 2013, 03:54

On my desktop computer with Firewire audio (RME FF400) I cured numerous audio problems occurring in multiple hosts by swapping my expensive top of the line Nvidea card for a cheap Asus card. It's been rock solid ever since. On my laptop with USB audio I experienced problems with Hollyhock at first. The fix was simply using a different USB port. Now all is good.

Nvidea drivers have been notorious for causing audio problems for years and should be avoided as much as possible.

woodslanding · Unread post by **woodslanding** » 02 Aug 2013, 16:21

which mac mini was that? I hope the new Mini works with RME via usb, as I'm planning to buy one....

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 02 Aug 2013, 17:01

I guess I should have done more research before buying a new laptop.
I wonder if I can swap a different graphics card for the nvidia one
Any recommendations on what card instead? Cheap asus one ?

woodslanding · Unread post by **woodslanding** » 03 Aug 2013, 00:34

bummer.... I don't think you can swap graphic cards on laptops (?)

It'sbasically impossible to do enough research on computers for audio!

My dell i7 quad can barely run anymore stuff in usine than my 6 year old lenovo core duo. I guess it's because of lousy drivers. I researched the crap out of it, and couldn't find any complaints that didn't seem to have been addressed.....

Not that I had many choices in a touchscreen laptop. HP, Dell or Lenovo that was it.

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 03 Aug 2013, 08:12

seamus wrote:I guess I should have done more research before buying a new laptop.
I wonder if I can swap a different graphics card for the nvidia one
Any recommendations on what card instead? Cheap asus one ?

actually, i didn't catch the model/brand name of that particular notebook.

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 07 Aug 2013, 08:37

15.6" Full HD (1920x1080) LED Backlit 95% NTSC Color Gamut Matte LCD (AU OB156HW01 V4)
30 Day "No Defective Pixel" Guarantee - SALE! $45 OFF
nVIDIA GeForce GTX 675MX 256bit w/2.0GB GDDR5
Built-in Blue Backlit Keyboard w/ Touch Sensitive Power Panel
Intel Core i7-3840QM (2.8~3.8GHz) w/8M L3 Cache - 4 Cores - 8 Threads
Stock Thermal Compound - FREE IC Diamond to CPU + GPU w/CPU Upgrade ONLY
16GB (2x 8GB) DDR3/1600 Dual Channel Memory
256GB (2x 128GB) mSATA III SSD in Super RAID 0
1TB Seagate Solid State Hybrid Drive - SATA III 6GB/s w/8GB SSD & 64 MB Cache
2nd HDD - None - 2nd HDD Bracket is Included
RAID 0 Enabled (2 Drives)
Combo Dual Layer SuperMulti DVDRW/CDRW Drive
Internal 7-in-1 Card Reader: SD/SDHC/SDXC/XD/MSPRO/MS/MM
Intel® Centrino® Wireless-N 2230 Wireless Card + Bluetooth 4.0 (Single Band)
Smart Li-ion Battery 9-Cell
Windows 8 - (64-bit ins

This the computer I have. It doesn't seem to like hollyhock. I guess it's the damn graphics card.

i opted for a machine without touch that had a good cpu and a good graphics card... although i may have bought the wrong card.
i figured i would add a secondary usb touchscreen later.

i am trying the new update but im sure that the graphics issues will remain.

I will see Senso soon for some advice. For the moment I am going to play with my ableton PUSH

Thomas Helzle · Unread post by **Thomas Helzle** » 07 Aug 2013, 14:11

Hm - that's really funny.

I do professional 3D graphics for many years and use Nvidia cards from the very first time they had hardware acceleration for OpenGL.
There was hardly a time when I had problems with their drivers. For OpenGL + 3D, they are still far ahead of ATI/AMD.
CUDA still outperforms anything OpenCL can do...

With that said, I have something like 200+ applications running on my current machine, from 3D software to Audio applications to web and video tools since I work in a wide spectrum of areas. I don't think I have problems with any of them related to the graphics card (a Nvidia GTX660TI in this case).
And neither had I when I was working on a Bootcamped MacPro before that had a Nvidia 8800GT.
Even things like AudioGL, which _really_ does a lot of graphics on the GPU ran fine even on that old machine.
(I'm using a Firewire device as well here).

So I'm pretty sceptical regarding the "Nvidia == Evil" equation to be honest.

Sure, configurations can go wrong and I guess dual GPU systems can be more complicated, especially if the graphics come from two different manufacturers (Intel and Nvidia in this case). I personally would be way more wary of Intel when it comes to graphics and drivers...

Well, just my two cent, but I wouldn't dump a lovely system that otherwise works great just because Usine in it's current incarnation can't deal with it

I understand that it can be a major pain for a developer to deal with problems like this, but again, if Usine is the only app with that problem and other audio software runs fine, I'm not sure I'd agree with Nvidia being the problem.

Cheers,

Tom

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 07 Aug 2013, 17:10

Thanks for the advice Thomas. The computer works fine for other programs.

Thomas Helzle · Unread post by **Thomas Helzle** » 07 Aug 2013, 17:36

Cheers Seamus - It wasn't really meant as advice, I just wanted to counterbalance the - IMO - slightly one-sided tendency in this thread a bit

Best of luck! Sounds like a lovely computer!

Cheers,

Tom

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 27 Aug 2013, 13:55

good news,
Nvidia video cards flicker issues solved in the 1.02.011

Thomas Helzle · Unread post by **Thomas Helzle** » 27 Aug 2013, 14:18

Brilliant - Congratulations!

Cheers,

Tom

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 27 Aug 2013, 15:50

That is superb news.
Yeah!!!!!

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 28 Aug 2013, 13:55

Great news! Any indication regarding what was going on related to the NVidia flicker?

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 18 Sep 2017, 23:31

Found this old topic, which seems to be related to first Hollyhock. So I can't figure out, is Usine supposed to work with Nvidia GPU or it used to do so in first release of Hollyhock? On audio part both HH2 and HH3 seem to cope well with tasks I'm giving it, but from what I'm seeing in Nvidia activity panel both of them run on Intel graphics. HH2 generally runs like a champ, but is outdated feature wise, however on HH3 UI starts to get choppy as I increase amount of interface elements (at first the only problem is choppy scrolling, then everything gets less responsive as I get UI busy).
It's not all that terrible or a dealbreaker though, just kinda bugs me that in theory if GPU is utilized properly, I could do much more with Usine and perhaps start to use video side of it as well.

mattmarantz · Unread post by **mattmarantz** » 19 Sep 2017, 10:23

x.iso wrote:Found this old topic, which seems to be related to first Hollyhock. So I can't figure out, is Usine supposed to work with Nvidia GPU or it used to do so in first release of Hollyhock? On audio part both HH2 and HH3 seem to cope well with tasks I'm giving it, but from what I'm seeing in Nvidia activity panel both of them run on Intel graphics. HH2 generally runs like a champ, but is outdated feature wise, however on HH3 UI starts to get choppy as I increase amount of interface elements (at first the only problem is choppy scrolling, then everything gets less responsive as I get UI busy).
It's not all that terrible or a dealbreaker though, just kinda bugs me that in theory if GPU is utilized properly, I could do much more with Usine and perhaps start to use video side of it as well.

I am on Mac (soon to be a Windows X user) but currently my entire setup is qued up on Mac in Hollyhock 3 32-bit (no 64 bit HH3 yet on Mac) and I have choppy GUI with strange clicking and dragging behavior. Sometimes if I simply mouse over a rack it will be dragged into the input of a different rack unintentionally. I also just get weird choppy glitchy graphics mainly on the racks. I am using some 3rd party stuff like J-Bridge to run 64 bit plugins in 32 bit HH3 as well as tons of FX and synths from 3rd party developers so it could be anything... Then again Logic, Mainstage, and Reaper do not have this type of behaviour. Audio is not affected which, for me, is the important part. MIDI is rock solid as well. Hope GUI gets fixed especially the unintentional clicking and dragging bugs because it's a bit cumbersome to edit my workspace like this.

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 20 Sep 2017, 13:28

Hi Guys,

I also remember as well...I remember in large workspaces...or when modifying large patches....each one has it's own "Undo".
I know if you disable the undo for a larger patch you are working on...it definitely helps performance depending on the system.
Now just remember to manually save. Just a suggestion to hopefully help ease...until figuring out your solution.

-s

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 20 Sep 2017, 18:10

I'm working on a new more efficient graphic engine but I need time.

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 27 Sep 2017, 00:40

I must say, after recent update and reintroduction of hardware acceleration everything is just better. I can set refresh rate at lowest latency and high quality just fine! UI is smoother and way faster, there are no artefacts or glitches so far and those that were present before are now gone. I see no drawbacks at all, CPU seems to have more "room" to breathe as well, with load decreasing about 10%. Thank you so much for this update.

mattmarantz · Unread post by **mattmarantz** » 27 Sep 2017, 10:58

x.iso wrote:I must say, after recent update and reintroduction of hardware acceleration everything is just better. I can set refresh rate at lowest latency and high quality just fine! UI is smoother and way faster, there are no artefacts or glitches so far and those that were present before are now gone. I see no drawbacks at all, CPU seems to have more "room" to breathe as well, with load decreasing about 10%. Thank you so much for this update.

Are you on Windows 10 or Mac OSX?

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 27 Sep 2017, 18:55

mattmarantz wrote:Are you on Windows 10 or Mac OSX?

On Windows 10 64-bit, but with 32-bit Usine.

mattmarantz · Unread post by **mattmarantz** » 28 Sep 2017, 07:38

x.iso wrote:
mattmarantz wrote:Are you on Windows 10 or Mac OSX?
On Windows 10 64-bit, but with 32-bit Usine.

OK cool, that's good news because I am switching to Windows next month. Cheers.

trik · Unread post by **trik** » 13 Oct 2017, 12:26

HH3 works fine on my Win 10/64 Gforce G710 Direct X12
It starts stuttering with only a few modules on my T410 Win 7/32 Intel HD Direct X10.1 and also Win 10/64 Intel HD
The same problem on my Lenovo Miix Tablet, Win 10/32 Intel HD Direct X 11

HH2 works fine on all my computers.

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 13 Oct 2017, 16:07

trik wrote:HH3 works fine on my Win 10/64 Gforce G710 Direct X12
It starts stuttering with only a few modules on my T410 Win 7/32 Intel HD Direct X10.1 and also Win 10/64 Intel HD
The same problem on my Lenovo Miix Tablet, Win 10/32 Intel HD Direct X 11

HH2 works fine on all my computers.

It could help if you specify what exact Intel GPU's you tried, but perhaps they're too weak for the task. Then again, I saw improvement over no hardware acceleration on Intel HD 4000.

trik · Unread post by **trik** » 17 Oct 2017, 09:10

Thanks, x.iso!
The specs for the Lenovo Miix Tablet:
Win 10/32 Intel Atom CPU Z3795 1.6GHz Intel HD Graphics Bay Trail GPU 10.18.10.4491WHQL Driver Direct X 11
The Lenovo Thinkpad T410
Win 7/32 Intel i5 520M CPU 2.4GHz Intel HD Graphics Arrandale GPU 2117PC14.34 BIOS 8.15.10.2993WHQL Driver Dirext X 10
Do you need any more specs?

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 17 Oct 2017, 10:31

Atom CPU seems a little under-powered for running, at least anything moderate wouldn't you think?
Haven't dealt with any of the newer ones, but older ones I just didn't have a good time with.

I have a ~2013 Samsung Series 7 AIO, Which has an i5, well back then 6GB DDR3, and uses Intel HD 3500 DX11. Still use it...now i overdo it way way too much...but still does fantastic.
On HH2 the DX10 was issue in many cases for slower graphical stutters, positional cursors not being smooth, etc... for me...this was on my main studio computer (a monster at the time and still a beast today), that had a GTX250 which only had DX10...and had a bunch of issues.

I moved up to a GTX750Ti and GTX980 and all graphical woes and stuttering went away with the the updates during the beginning phases of HH2.

I use the HD3500 on a daily basis for about 75% of my HH work, although my GTXs are amazing...I just have no qualms even using the intel very much.

-s

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 17 Oct 2017, 11:37

yes, given the specs Lenovo Miix Tablet may have trouble with DAWs in general due to CPU not up for the task. For audio processing you need as much CPU power as possible and any Atom based tablet is not really designed for power intensive tasks.

as for Thinkpad, maybe without hardware acceleration it would do better since integrated Intel GPU is too weak.

sephult · Unread post by **sephult** » 17 Oct 2017, 11:40

That is true, as I mentioned earlier x.iso...at least on HH2...
You could tell the mode when you started up...looking at the config file it told you if you were using the better graphics.
Sorry brains not awake yet or I'd spell it out, but you know what I mean...I've typed it like 6 or 7 times in the Forum...hahaha

-s

trik · Unread post by **trik** » 17 Oct 2017, 19:40

x.iso wrote:yes, given the specs Lenovo Miix Tablet may have trouble with DAWs in general due to CPU not up for the task. For audio processing you need as much CPU power as possible and any Atom based tablet is not really designed for power intensive tasks.

as for Thinkpad, maybe without hardware acceleration it would do better since integrated Intel GPU is too weak.

Thanks fory your reply.
HH2 works like a charm on both, the atom processor and the old i5. I have hardware acceleration enabled on both machines.
It is only HH3 that's not working.

montagproject · Unread post by **montagproject** » 03 Dec 2017, 20:25

Hello

It is my first post here. I recently purchased HH3 (black friday) and I feel that somehow HH3 is more buggy / less stable than HH and HH2 (in both cases I was using the limited free version). I have an impression that moving windows around or anything that displays a window creates a not-proportional cpu load peak, and audio stutters. Tried to turn-on the hardware acceleration but this makes my screen blink with every move and freezes usine after a while...

What coud I do to optimize the experience? (Im on Win7 64 AMD Radeon)

Best Regards
Michal

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 04 Dec 2017, 02:06

Have you made sure that Usine is running with AMD GPU and not integrated one?

monsieurtom · Unread post by **monsieurtom** » 05 Apr 2018, 00:45

I have been trying out the video modules and just playing a couple of HD videos overloads the CPU and kills the audio flow.
I havenÂ´t managed to let usine use the GPU. Hardware acceleration and Nvidia settings donÂ´t fix the problem.
same issue with both my laptop and desktop PC.
The Nvidia GPU monitor stays around 1-2% while the CPU spikes and sound gets scrambled.
Playing the same videos on multiple VLC instances at once gets the GPU monitor to 20-30%, and I can even simultaneously run usine with a heavy workspace flawlessly
The problem seems to be within Usine itself (Hollyhock Win64 3.0.166-1)

x.iso · Unread post by **x.iso** » 05 Apr 2018, 10:10

That's probably because Usine utilizes HW acceleration just for UI and it seems to treat and process videos as uncompressed bitmaps. Although Resolume seems to utilize HW acceleration for video processing, so it should be possible to do in Usine in theory.

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