Hollyhock as platform to play/control synths with midi drums?

[DruMunkey]

Hello all...

First, let me describe what I'm trying to accomplish... I want to play 100% synth-based music, but rather than keyboards, knobs, etc. I want to use my eDrums/Midi drums as the interface. Not JUST percussion sounds... I'm talking about all the stuff you'd do with keyboard/knob controller, but with drums... Control arp rates/setting, control super low freq LFO's that would drive/control overall song structure, etc.

But not totally generative... There will be some automation or generative aspect to it, but it will all be controlled by MIDI messages. Make sense?

I don't need to record audio in (i.e. no geetars, no vocals, etc.)

Don't need linear arranging etc. as I'm not "composing" as much as "improvising"... Hope that makes sense... It's this fact that means I'll never use like 75% of apps like Live, Fruity, Bitwig, etc. My entire idea is live, performance oriented with a ton of real time modulation that can be "meta controlled" via MIDI notes from my drum trigger interface.

Obviously just playing a drum synth is no big deal. Map the notes, and boom...

However, what I want to do is perform various knob twidding equivilants with drum pads. That means doing things like assigning a pad/mid note to increment/decrement a setting (LFO or filter freq, etc.)... Or being able to trigger a series of notes (a bassline or arp.) one at a time with each pad hit. Just triggering a seq or sample is a no brainer in just about every package, so that's not what I need. I need a tool that has "easy"-ish to use MIDI routing and scripting/mangling capability and the ability to map MIDI messages to various modulation controllers. ("easyish" vs something like Max or PureData).

As what I'm trying to do seems kinda unusual, I'm having a hard time figuring out the best tools... I've poked into the docs of various usual suspects, but I keep seeing things that I think will be red flags eventually, and thus I'll have wasted a lot of time before I find out it's a dead-end.

Before I dump more money (but mostly time) into more tools, I want to see if maybe Hollyhock will get me there.. Max for Live will not work as the midi implementation between the two is messed up as you lose viz into what the original channel or port was once it goes into Max (from what I've read). Plus MFL+MAX is soo expensive, and I don't need most of it...

Max alone looks like total overkill to me. I'll prob. rely /mostly/ on VST drum/perc synths for quite a while, so I'm not looking to build my own modulars.

I just need the ability to do things like the MIDI wrangling I outline above, as well as interface with VSTs for automation/modulation from the "host" processor.

It seems like AM may be a good way to go, but I'm also curious about Flowstone and AudioMulch...

Any of you pros see a reason why Hollyhock would not work for me?

[Trogluddite]

Hi there, Drumonkey.

You can certainly do the MIDI manipulation you need in Usine. There are standard patching components which allow you to extract each byte of a MIDI message individually, transform them, and create any new message that you desire (up to, and including, SysEx messages). I use this feature a lot myself to trigger my looping tools from a Roland TD6 electronic drum kit.

Usine is also very flexible for using VST instruments. They can be imported as part of a Usine patch, and then any automatable parameter can be connected to envelopes, LFOs, MIDI receivers etc. This lets you build your own custom interface for any plugin - which I find very handy for making "magnified" interfaces that I can see easily when I'm sat behind the drumkit.

I've also used FlowStone, and I'm not so sure that would be as suitable for what you want to do. Although it is very flexible, it is more of a programming environment than an all-in-one music tool. You can use it to create your own VST plugins, but it doesn't have it's own audio recording facilities, and can't import existing VST plugins - so you would still require a host DAW to be able to use the plugins that you build with it.

In fact, I migrated from FlowStone to Usine exactly so that I could work in a similar way to what you suggest - and I haven't regretted it for one moment so far!

[DruMunkey]

@trogluddite

SOLD!!! Olivier needs to pay you a commission!

When/if you use a "regular" DAW, what do you use? I'd been eyeing Bitwig as I like the modular direction they are heading...

Anyway, looks like thsi weekend is "learn Hollyhock" weekend.

[DruMunkey]

@trogluddite

I was going to PM you, but I can't figure out how on this forum...

What kind of music do you play using drums & Hollyhock? Got links? It's hard to find examples of people doing what I'm trying to do. Tony Verderosa years ago was kind of heading in the right direction, even though he was mostly triggering samples... And then there's Endre Huszár now (eNerd), but again, he's still using drums as drums with triggering as an addition, rather than treating the pad as just an interface device.

[oli_lab]

Thats a great project for witch Usine is perfectly taylored !

sure you can do all you're planning to do with Usine, faster than with max or puredata, as the learning curve with Usine is more linear !

you can as well record you performance directly within Usine and edit it with Reaper (or edit your live video + sound with Reaper + ffmpeg)

[Trogluddite]

Hi again,

I don't have anything posted online at the moment. I have a bad habit of getting bogged down in building tools, effect and synths! (I enjoy it really!) I keep ending up with a backlog of recordings that I never find the time to edit down into something digestible.

When I play, I'm mostly working with audio loops, using Usine with an old VST looping plugin that I made years ago. I have mic, bass, drums, and VST synths all plugged in at once, so I can grab a loop from any of them at any time - hence needing a way to trgger record and play from the drumkit so I can grab drum loops with a smooth loop point. The bass goes though an FX chain that includes audio tracking synths, as I'm a pretty lousy keyboard player!

The looping plugin allows for a bit of pitch-shifting and time stretching, and each loop to have its own time signature, as I like polyrhymic music. It also includes "glitch" type FX and a few other oddities. I'm in the middle of porting it into Usine's own format at the moment, which will be a lot less clunky to use - I'll post that here as soon as I have a Beta good to go. (My C++ is a bit rusty, so it might take a while!)

As far as DAWs, I haven't really used a conventional DAW for a long time - I usually just record whole live performances with the looper in real time. I'll use Reaper if I do need to do any multi-track editing, but I have no idea how it compares with the others these days.