BrainModular

Posted: **17 Dec 2008, 23:56**

Hey guys what's up. Hope all is well on your side of the world : )

I'm rather new to all this touchscreen technology and had some questions for ya:

1) How Usine compares to the Lemur from JazzMutant?

I recently saw Nine Inch Nails in concert and they were all using Lemurs during many parts of the show. I then did some research and found out that the Lemur is ridiculously overpriced!

So I found out about Usine and here I am.

2) So yeah, are there any features that the Usine has that the Lemur doesn't, and vice versa?

3) Is the Usine multi-touch compatible yet?

4) I use Logic Pro 8 on an Intel Mac and was also wondering if I could load Usine as a AU plugin or is it VST only?

5) What kind of touchscreen monitor would you guys recommend? I read that SAW monitors are far better than five wire resistor ones.

6) I was thinking about converting my current LCD monitor into a SAW touchscreen and would also like to know if you anyone else on this board has done this with success.

Well, thank you very much for your time and consideration and I look forward to your replies. Take care.

Peace.

Posted: **18 Dec 2008, 19:48**

hello,
Welcome to Usine I can answer because I use to have a lemur and made the touch-screen layer in usine because the lemur was a big deception for me.

2) So yeah, are there any features that the Usine has that the Lemur doesn't, and vice versa?

Usine is a live oriented soft which include a lemur...and cost 70€ or free...
I mean that with the lemur, you make a patch with Reaktor, you have to make another patch in the lemur. After that you have to connect reaktor with the lemur using Open Sound Control or Midi Mapple. It's fastidious.
Also the lan setup is long and use to crash on stage...
With usine, simple you make your patch, and the 'touch -interface' is include in your patch.

Also and it was probably the worth: you can't modify or create object dynamically with the lemur:
If you have a 4/4 groove box and you want to use it in 5/5 you have to create 2 lemur patches...
For me was totally impossible!

3) Is the Usine multi-touch compatible yet?

Since windows isn't multitouch usine can't be multitouch.
Usine will be Multitouch in 6-8 month.

4) I use Logic Pro 8 on an Intel Mac and was also wondering if I could load Usine as a AU plugin or is it VST only?

Usine works only on Windows as a VST or stand alone, but installing it with boot-camp is now very common.

5) What kind of touchscreen monitor would you guys recommend? I read that SAW monitors are far better than five wire resistor ones.

see http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=987

Posted: **19 Dec 2008, 00:27**

Hi just my two cents, since I also own a lemur, a since a short time the clevo tablet PC wich is for me a revolution

!!!

Rezon8 wrote:1) How Usine compares to the Lemur from JazzMutant?

Usine: Pros : totally integrated, fast and easy to use, reliable, limited only by your imagination, for such a small price.
Cons: Not multitouch yet, but in perpetual and (very) fast evolution.

Lemur: Pros: Interesting in itself, great concepts with the physics of objects ,the new scripting language, good looking. Actually it's a whole world in itself where you can build very original "instruments".
Cons: very fastidious to program, or to modify a program when it's done. Limited to its own library of objects (you can not build your own), some characteristics of the objects cannot be modified dynamically. Many layers of software not so reliable to communicate with (midi yoke, jazzdaemon), ethernet problems sometimes. Well it's a whole world, reall powerful, but for me not easy enough to communicate with. And Whatever you've patched in Usine, reaktor, max or whatever, you have to repatch it in the lemur. Twice more work. Expensive too!

Don't also forget the inherent limitation of touchscreens is the absence of physical feedback, and the fact you have to look at what you're doing.

Rezon8 wrote:2) So yeah, are there any features that the Usine has that the Lemur doesn't, and vice versa?

For me Usine is far more open and powerful.

Rezon8 wrote:3) Is the Usine multi-touch compatible yet?

See Senso's answer.

Rezon8 wrote:4) I use Logic Pro 8 on an Intel Mac and was also wondering if I could load Usine as a AU plugin or is it VST only?

Usine is VST but windows only. You can use it with bootcamp perfectly (I've been doing it on stage for 2 1/2 years). But you can't use it inside Logic since logic works only on mac OSX. The only way would be to have two machines, 1 Mac OS with logic and 1 Windows with Usine, and have both communicating via midi, OSC, or anything.

If you idea is simply to have a touchscreen to control logic, then the lemur might be a good solution, or even better: dexter, wich is all ready to use.

Rezon8 wrote:5) What kind of touchscreen monitor would you guys recommend? I read that SAW monitors are far better than five wire resistor ones.

The Clevo is great.

Rezon8 wrote:6) I was thinking about converting my current LCD monitor into a SAW touchscreen and would also like to know if you anyone else on this board has done this with success.

Well, thank you very much for your time and consideration and I look forward to your replies. Take care.

Peace.

Best regards,

B.

Posted: **19 Dec 2008, 06:45**

Rezon8 wrote:5) What kind of touchscreen monitor would you guys recommend? I read that SAW monitors are far better than five wire resistor ones.

i got myself a capacitive 17" LCD that's fantastic. it took quite a while to find one for a price i could afford, but i wanted a capacitive as they're (supposedly) a little tougher and longer lasting than wire resistive models as everythings behind the glass. capacitive touch is what's used in the iphone and it certainly seems to work fine there!! 5 wire is meant to be better (in accuracy and longevity) than 4 wire but capacitive certainly seems to be alright so far... but i've only had it for a few months. i haven't used an SAW screen so i can't comment on them, basically they were out of my price range!!! there's also infra-red screens that are meant to be accurate, but again are well out of my price range and i have never actually used one.

Posted: **19 Dec 2008, 12:59**

Hi USINERS

I use USINE with a LEMUR

1/ For sure LEMUR is a big waste of time of programming with their own bug …

2/ “Limited to its own library of objects (you can not build your own), some characteristics of the objects cannot be modified dynamically” Some times it’s a problem you have right in particular this one: you can not change the number of step in the step sequencers…

3/ I discover that the way of OSC module are running in USINE are not so comfortable for programming USINE patch with OSC (see this topic link: http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1170)

4/ I think the best way of using the LEMUR is to adapt the possibility of the LEMUR to your way of creating music and and not the contrary (big deception)
.
5/ I’m not sure but (Olivier correct me if I’m wrong) the lemur is MULTI TOUCH than the Touchscreen is MONO TOUCH).

Charles

Posted: **10 Mar 2009, 20:17**

senso wrote:
3) Is the Usine multi-touch compatible yet?
Since windows isn't multitouch usine can't be multitouch.
Usine will be Multitouch in 6-8 month.

what does that mean exactly?
..windows 7 will improve things here, so my post might be obsolete at the time smby reads this

I mean, lemur does work with usine and thus with windows (based on a OSC interpreter)?
the deal is, I reckon, windows xp does not allow more than one pointing device (connect 3 mice => still one mouse) - while osx does support this I believe...

however, stumbled over a lib by the whitenoiseaudio guy
http://www.whitenoiseaudio.com/touchlib/
seems he targets directly the graphic/video controllers, bypassing windows..

just beginning to start getting into touchscreens.
checked at a local industry seller who offers Elo touchsystems

have an eye on a ELO 15" IntelliTouch - Seriell/USB (surface wave touch) (for 512 euro)
- any comments?
- is 15" feasible? go for 17/19" or 12.1"?
- dont know if intellitouch (SAW: surface acoustic wave) or APR (acoustic pulse recognition) is the better technology for audio soft?

edit: touchscreen.ch sells a 52” LCD Rear Mount Monitor, Infrared/USB (4750 euro)

Posted: **10 Mar 2009, 20:33**

not easy to choose , cause things are faster and faster those days....

Posted: **10 Mar 2009, 23:07**

From a previous post

You are right, there are many solutions for multitouch but tactually there is no 'standard'.
I don't want to waste time to implement the touchlib, the HP API, the Dell SDK, etc.
Windows 7 will define the standard for drivers so Usine will be multitouch natively on all machines.

If you absolutely want a multitouch I advise you to wait until windows 7.

But I use a single touch pc for 10 month now and I can tell you that its great!!

And don't forget that even if you can touch several things at the same time, you can't look at two things at the same time...
So believe me, you can live without multitouch.

Posted: **11 Mar 2009, 02:32**

..and you can prepare your modules that will be ready to use when w7 will be there i guess. personnally I'll wait till w7 is out, there will be massive offers with prices drop, you can get a cheap touch pannel on ebay for 70 euros if you can't wait. but I would be a bit angry put 500 euros in a monotouch to see in 6 month multitouch for the same price..

im waiting this one or a multitouuch eepc, both from asus.

Posted: **12 Mar 2009, 10:53**

23fx23 wrote:. you can get a cheap touch pannel on ebay for 70 euros if you can't wait. but I would be a bit angry put 500 euros in a monotouch to see in 6 month multitouch for the same price..

I dont think a 70 euro touchscreen is worth the money... not reliable, not precise enough. my golden rule: never go for the cheapest solution!

the same idea I had too: better wait for multitouch?
it will come to the mass market and it will further change computer control paradigms
yet I doubt a lemur is outdated and overpriced in 6 months.
multitouch is still in an early stage - the technology is there but the market isnt.
who would produce multitouch in masses, for what purpose?
there is an emerging market for industry needs, however.

if u look at other technologies at this stage one can expect at least 2 years until u get a decent multitouch 15" for 500 euros.

thats what I am telling myself... cant wait any longer!!

Posted: **12 Mar 2009, 15:46**

amiga909 wrote:who would produce multitouch in masses, for what purpose?

..Apple could, W7 and a new tactile mac os at the same time and be sure they ll arange to tell us our lcd is obsolete in a very short time. im quasi sure actually there lo'rs of multitouch beiing preapered at dell, hp, sony, asus, ect.
the big question that could really make things go faster is

what is apple preparing regarding this....

im in quite the same case than you, sooo hard to wait...

Posted: **12 Mar 2009, 19:49**

I got a $65 USD 12" ELO touchscreen on eBay. Workable, but it has extreme latency (as I knew it would).

When I was pestering the Albatron company about their upcoming 22" multitouch screen here's the reply I got:

Albatron wrote:Hi Sir,

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in our products, our OTM multi-touch monitor should be available on the end of March or the begin of April. Price should keep you informed later of March.

We would keep you informed wen the 21.5 inch sample ready, and sample should deliver direct from our Taipei office.

Meanwhile, please advise your company name and complete address.

Best regards

Ellen Hsieh
IPC Dept.
ALBATRON TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD.
6F, No.716,Chung Cheng Rd., Chung-Ho City
Taipei Hsien, 235 Taiwan, R.O.C.
Tel: 886-2-8227 3277 ext. 166
Fax: 886-2-8227 3266
e-mail: ellenhsieh@albatron.com.tw
Web: www.albatron.com.tw

In reference to this press release posted on hardwarezone:

http://www.hardwarezone.com/news/view.p ... 2532&cid=6

Albatron wrote:Albatron Optical Touch Monitor on course with Multi-Touch Mania!
Albatron Technology has announced its new Optical Touch Monitor (OTM), on course with a new era of Multi Touch Panel monitors. At NVISION ’08, multi-touch panels were lauded by Jen-Hsun Huang in his keynote speech as being one of the most exciting emerging technologies. Multi-Touch was demonstrated last year by Bill Gates using beta versions of Windows 7. And who could forget Tom Cruise dragging, wiping, and tapping away in Spielberg’s Sci-Fi classic, Minority Report. Introduced as a development version at the most recent Computex, the Albatron OTM has since been fine-tuned with improved technology to bolster performance and prepare it for the consumer market.

How is an Optical Touch Monitor different from traditional touch monitors?

The difference between an Optical Touch Panel and a traditional touch panel lie in the sensing material, that make up the screen itself. In a traditional touch panel monitor (capacitive, resistance types), “sensing” technology is embedded into every square inch of the screen. In Albatron’s OTM, there is absolutely NO “sensing” technology in the screen per-se; movement is all tracked with infrared light, optical sensors and reflection bars surrounding the screen on the edges of the frame.
Optical Monitor Advantages versus Traditional Touch Monitors

This new optical technology offers many advantages to traditional capacitive and resistive touch monitors.
The OTM requires no recalibration as opposed to traditional touch monitors that typically require recalibration after extended use.
OTM is more cost effective. When manufacturing larger and larger traditional touch screens, there is a proportional increase in the cost of “sensing” material, since the technology is embedded into the screen . As mentioned, there is no “sensing” material in an OTM screen itself, so increasing the size of the monitor does not result in a proportional increase in the cost of “sensing” material (there is only a marginal increase in general costs due to materials needed for producing a larger product).
OTM monitors are more durable. In a traditional touch monitor, wear and tear from tapping, prodding, scraping, dragging can damage the “sensing” material on the screen. Since the “sensing” material is not embedded into the screen on an OTM, it is impossible to damage the “sensing” capabilities through normal use.
OTM has multi-touch capabilities (manipulating the screen with more than one finger). Traditional touch panels are incapable of multi-touch capabilities.
OTM can grow to unlimited size. Because of the simple structure of OTM technology, these monitors can theoretically be built as large as you need. Traditional touch monitors, however, are limited to 15” or less.
OTM display is more brilliant than traditional touch monitors because the screen itself is not obstructed with embedded sensing hardware.

Touch Panel Applications- As far as your imagination can reach.

Aside from obvious educational opportunities for children and enhanced multimedia experience, the Touch Panel possibilities are endless. Already, we’ve seen awesome multi-touch adaptations by Google-Earth, YouTube and other web applications. 3D Medical imaging display, digital musical instruments, art (sculpture and painting), gaming, hand writing applications, advertising all have great potential for large screen touch panels.

OTM specifications

The first shipments of the OTM monitor will have a 21.5” screen with FULL HD capabilities. Performance reaches 120 points/second refresh rates, which is higher than most touch monitors which rarely exceed 100 points/second. The connectors include a DVI port, DSub port which receive traditional video and graphics from a PC. An Audio Line-Out port can attach to external speakers. A USB 2.0 connector is used to relay “touch” navigation information to the PC. The OTM supports both Windows XP and Vista.

Touch Panel Technology – All aboard!

It’s cost effective, more durable, larger and has multi-touch capabilities. So what is not to like about Albatron’s new OTM monitors? And with Windows 7 on the horizon, supporting multi-touch, Albatron expects a wave of new applications and touch panel ideas flooding the market. The OTM is expected to reach the market in March of 2009.

I myself am attempting to make a multitouch interface for Usine with a programmer friend of mine using different hardware in case this turns out to be vaporware.

Posted: **14 Mar 2009, 17:43**

tkx for the information, runagate and 23fx. helped to improve my weak knowledge about touchscreens.

if multitouch is gonna boom and sell like hell, singletouch monitor prices will drop?
personally I would not mind having a singletouch monitor - but only if I can add another touchscreen later.

windows xp does not support multiple pointing devices.
do u think this will be possible and STABLE in win7?
..maybe silly to expect this from MS, but I am an optimistic guy

Posted: **14 Mar 2009, 18:52**

comments on W7 from beta testers seems strangly positive

Posted: **14 Mar 2009, 21:29**

senso wrote:And don't forget that even if you can touch several things at the same time, you can't look at two things at the same time...
So believe me, you can live without multitouch.

had to think about this.
if I remind me of using hardware 'multitouch' I need to keep my fingers on the controller while visually focussing just one single spot.
with touchpanels my fingers dont receive such a tactile feedback (turning a real knob, moving a real fader).

on the other hand multitouch clearly has its elegance, its air of future

gosh..

hard to decide

luckily the audio software is already chosen

Posted: **14 Mar 2009, 22:07**

Hello Usiners,

Just for info (eventhough I don't think it's the purpose of this forum) but after all this thread is about lemur and Usine,
I plan to sell my lemur.
You can find the ad right there:
http://forum.jazzmutant.com/viewtopic.php?t=1654
I've lowered the price to 1250€.
Anyone's interested?
Regards,

B.

BrainModular

Usine vs. Lemur?