Piano Roll Patch

[franck]

Hello Olivier,

Sorry but I discover all days news things and I have some news suggestions.
Yesterday I'm working first time with piano roll patch, nice.
Suggestions for piano roll:

A new sync mode in addition to sync loop, cycle, button, bar. This new sync mode will desactive the loop in the piano roll, thus the midi file is played in syncro with the master time cursor (when the master cursor time arrive at the begenning of the patch who contains piano roll it plays the midi file of piano roll. If the time cursor leaves the piano roll patch it stops the midi file (similar that wave player seqencer).

A menu quantization in piano roll for create news notes (quantize start position) and resize notes f(quantize notes longer when I rezize a note)

To prohibit superposition of notes (when creating, resizing, moving notes)

OK, and thank you for the interest in users suggestions
franck

[franck]

I had forgotten
the quantization options in piano roll can be :
nearest 1 beat
nearest 1/2 beat, nearest 1/3 beat, nearest 1/4 beat, nearest 1/6 beat, nearest 1/8 beat, nearest 1/9 beat, nearest 1/12 beat, nearest 1/16 beat, nearest 1/24 beat, nearest 1/32 beat, nearest 1/32 beat .
franck

[senso]

thanks for feedbacks.
I'll see if I can implement that easily.

[amiga909]

just new to Usine, all I can say: overwhelming! I am into plogue bidule (and synthedit) since a long time but Usine seems to beat them for my purposes. among a lot of other things a position automation piano roll is my dream, thats also the reason I would no want to use another host inside or outside (for the upcoming usine vst) here. its so wicked, just made an experiment and connected the TIME?:ss to ROLL:pos/start via some math and cycle-synced the roll, incredible (no hanging noteOn's (with Helios2)???)!

to make the piano roll a (for me) serious tool for composing, I'd love to see some more functions (look+feel is already ok):
- 'select grid' // for start+end times edit, up to 128th; for quantize the same of course
- 'zoom vertical', 'zoom horizontal'
- 'add/remove pattern' // why strictly 8 patterns??
- 'audition on/off' // cant stand to hear a note while creating
- a way to select/copy/delete multiple notes, as mentioned

some more ideas:
- if possible: change playing direction to backwards (also for the other midiseq modules)
- scaleable window is really nice. dont like the behavior thu. a 'full screen' switch would be nice
- 'swing' // add shuffle timing (maybe there is already another module)
- 'fit to window' // auto-zoom
- 'drum map' // for drum patterns (edit names for note-rows, delete unused note rows)

[senso]

thanks for feedbacks.

the Big dilemma:the Piano-roll edition functionalities are
- very important for composers
- less important in live situation because generally, when you are on stage, your songs are already composed!
I have to find a compromise and make improvements as fast as I can.

So my priority is to improve the copy/paste on piano roll and create a Vst version.

[franck]

Hello Olivier,
For the sequencer piano roll and the piano roll module it will be cool if the 2 modules have exactlly sames functions execpt no loop markers in seqencer piano roll.
Franck

[cmodica]

Please don't forget that Usine is a soft for live music, improvisation and experimental music. I like it for that. I don't need an other Cubase or protools or a soft witch can do anything but nothing really well.

But it is just my opinion and my way to use this soft.

[amiga909]

the Big dilemma:the Piano-roll edition functionalities are
less important in live situation

well, I dont agree. since a ong time I struggled to get something like a traktor-DJ-looping tool but with midi instead of audio. imho this is of high musical value since some hardware step sequencers (Schaltwerk, P3, Zeit, Octopus) allow this sort of things. I am not talking about editing notes in the roll on the stage, I mean manipulation of midi patterns. there are loads of nice midi fx but they all work event-per-event (transpose/delay event). I want to do manipulations that consider the entire pattern data (shorten/reverse pattern). same as beatmanglers consider audio as loops?

vst solution is highly acceptable, sensomusic could not beat cubase/logic's composing with piano rolls anyway. import via midi file import or record via usine-vst is surely ok..

1. we dont need the comfort of 1000$-software here
2. we need the possibility to change midi data at least somehow within usine's piano roll, like move a note a 32th step... finer quantization remains a need.

btw: i'll turn from a nagging parasite to a nagging customer soon (hope its better to be a nagging customer than a non-nagging parasite)

[senso]

I know that the piano roll can be improved.
Since Sensomusic is a very small team, we go as fast as we can.
The copy/paste will be implemented in the next version.
slowly but surely ....

[amiga909]

just would like to bump this thread once again...

the piano roll module still concerns me a lot.
in my view it's the most important thing because I'd like to compose within usine.

you could use host vsti's (eg. fruityLoops) or rewire/osc/virtualMidiDrivers. or export midi patterns from other hosts and rebuild your songs. all approaches are not satisfying for me. I'd really like to do everything with usine. or have a midi pattern vsti with decent remote control features. Phrazor by sonicbytes could have been this but its abandoned.

my question: why not concentrate on kewl composing features? for me its really crucial to have a piano roll alike cubase/fruity/orion/whatever. this would also make a difference to all other modular vst hosts I know (none of them have a good piano roll).

what do the others think?

is a good piano roll crucial?
do you want to use usine for composing?

sorry for nagging again (yet at least I paid the small fee for usinePro meanwhile)

[senso]

I know that the piano roll can be an essential part of the soft.
I try to implement, as fast as I can, all suggestions about it.
Feel free to post concrete suggestions about the piano roll.
Finally, basic question "what is a good piano roll' is not so clear for me!

[Kaspar]

This is quite good - the Japanese MIDI editor "Domino":
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/eidenk/Tem ... nglish.zip

A screenshot and some information:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21774

[amiga909]

some suggestions.
its true a piano roll is maybe more about habits than general criteria.

tkx for the domino link kaspar. a nice midi editor for sure. very good look+feel, the rectangle mode is really clever.


<1. what is missing so badly I cannot sleep>
1a. resolution. to have eg. a 1/32 u could double the speed, sure. its not very intuitive tho and if you want a note which is 63/64 long the speed-doubling method gets cumbersome. for start+end times edit, up to 128th (also dotted/tripled values)
1b. quantization.
-> dropmenu 'resolution' (visual + quantize resolution); button 'quantize'; checkbox 'quantizeOnRecord' (moves to next step in selected resolution)
1c. rectangle tool. as said domino has a nice approach here

<2. nice to have>
2a. zooming: buttons 'zoom vertical', 'zoom horizontal', 'autozoom' (fit to window)
2b. checkbox 'audition' // hear sound when insert a new note
2c. button 'add/remove current pattern' // why strictly 8 patterns???
2d. quickly adjust velocity // velocity-coloured notes, if u click+hold a note: right/left is shrink/expand, up/down is for velo
2e. move selected notes around via computer keyboard (up/down/left/right)
2f. toggle button 'maximize/minimize' (toggle full screen)

<3. really. I am not that serious about it, just in case you have too much time>
3a. dropmenu 'notation' // switch piano roll to different notation modes, eg. list/score/etc.
3b. checkbox 'show ghost notes of other patterns', 'current pattern shown in ghost mode' // somehow display multiple other patterns with transparent notes...
3c. another screen 'piano roll constructor': edit names for note-rows, delete unused note rows, save/load map files. nice for drum maps, custom traditional rolls (eg. specific intervals only), maybe edit pitchbend setting for every note row to get the microtonal heads

<4. usual but "not needed" in usine>
3a. CC curves. imho usine concepts with wave modules is genious. makes for sense for me to have CC movements external to the note/velo data. new approach and kewl.


any comments?
senso: hope its allright I am killing your time

thanks.

[franck]

Hello, some suggestions for pianoroll

More snap options ( actually 1/8 and 1/12)

A rectangle tool selection to move, delete, change velocity, copy selected and paste at cursor position.

Zoom with scroll mouse

More easy velocity tool control (for exemple, possibility to modify just one type of note velocity without modify size of piano roll window : if I have a bass drum in C1, I select C1 (popup menu or other solution) and I modify just velocity of all my C1 notes in the area velocity with left mouse button).

Save real midi files (I know work on that ...)

Thanks
franck and friends

[senso]

thanks for all your concrete suggestions.
Most of them can be implemented easily.
I'll do my best.

[martignasse]

hi,

already mentioned, but crucial for live use :

- deal with more than eight memory slot, ideally unlimited.

If the wave list principles of the sampler can be adapted to midi files, it could be a good solution, as it respect the coherence of the soft, and surely simplify senso work.

what do you think about that, guy's ?

[senso]

I can set the number of midi files loaded in the pianoroll to 16 easily but it's hard to make it unlimited... because of the memory usage...

[martignasse]

yep, off course, there is a memory limit.

But in most case, a sound file is heavier than a midi file, right ? (I have some for entire track and there are about 100~200 Kb ).

So, it should be possible to have the same system has the sampler (a file list, and next/prev...). the goal is to have the same flexibility for audio and midi files, and if the file system is the same, it's easier for you to develop and maintain.

[Stefan]

Hi, I have some suggestions and questions about the piano roll, too.

- There is an option to save the complete piano roll (with all eight files I guess), but I can´t load a complete fileset. I can only import single midi files again... or am I missing something here?
- When quantising and recording midi notes (via a Korg Padkontrol), I very often can´t hear the sound while I am playing. The notes get recorded and played back the next loop, but I can´t hear them while playing. Is this normal?
- it would be great to have additional options to copy/paste the current page (e.g 1) with one click to another page (from 1 to . So you could play a simple rhythm in page 1, click one button and have it copied to roll 2, 3, 4 where you could overdub and enhance it with single hits.

Greetings,
Stefan

[senso]

be patient I'll improve the pianoroll soon and try to implement al your suggestions

[maxdis]

A rectangle tool selection to move, delete, change velocity, copy selected and paste at cursor position.

+1

[amiga909]

tkx a lot for the piano roll updates in 3.68x.

one thing I am personally a bit picky about.

grid lines. it's not much help to set 1/64 when you can't see the subdivisions visually.
accordingly there should be a zoom function...

I know, I am a darn crybaby

checking out temper vst at the moment. sadly temper vst allows no automation at all (for eg. midi clip change).

[amiga909]

cant resist to go once more for a discussion of the piano roll.
still for my needs better midi composing is crucial.

out of interest: how difficult was it for steinberg to implement the piano roll and sequencer editing?
I can only imagine the GUI is a can of worms, but the functionalities are not?
for example: was zooming in cubase's piano roll hard to code?

nag, nag, nag


btw: tkx a lot for the new reverse option!
never done before afaik

[senso]

I'll improve the piano on each new versions.
Especially, in the 4.1 the editing capabilities will be enhanced.