Multirhythms

[wildemar]

Hi there

I've been trying to get Usine to play cycles with canging timesigs (3/4 4/4 3/4 6/4, or whatever). It would be ever so sweet if that were possible without any hacks or workarounds, because these will only *not* get in your way when you know what you want to end up with. For experimentation, workarounds just bump you out of "the zone".

So I tried to create a patch that allows me to simply enter some bar lengths (in beats) into an array and feed those to the syncro module at the start of each bar. I've uploaded this patch here: <www.student.uni-oldenburg.de/andreas.wa ... hanger.pat>
It isn't very complicated, you should be able to understand it pretty quickly. Just put it in a track besides some sound generators (preferably playing something that makes it easy to count the beats and bars), make it play and watch the meter. In it's current setup it should make for a simple 4/4 4/4 4/4 5/4 cycle.

Sadly, it does not work as I hoped. Usine seems to loop this very oddly, skiping beats and all. Counting the beats, I found that while the timesig does change in the UI, the overall beat count per cycle is as though it were a 4 bars long 4/4 cycle. Oddly, when you change the last bar to a 3/4, that seems to work. Do you guys have any ideas towards fixing this?

(This would be the killer feature for me; if this works, I'll ditch Ableton Live, I tell you! )

regards,
/W

[senso]

hello,
you're right the patch doesn't work with the actual version of usine.
It's my fault I didn't anticipate bar length changes in real time, and I made a couple of changes since the version 3.0...

Anyway, I'll post an update very soon so the actual patch will work perfectly again.

[senso]

just a tip if you can't wait.
With the actual version the patch works if you set the bar length to 1...

[wildemar]

Anyway, I'll post an update very soon so the actual patch will work perfectly again.

Awesome. If that isn't dedication to your users, I don't know what is. This is very much appreciated.

just a tip if you can't wait.
With the actual version the patch works if you set the bar length to 1...

I'm not sure if I know what you mean. Changing the bar lengths is the very thing that patch is meant to do. Do you mean replacing a 5/4 4/4 3/4 7/4 progression with a 19x1/4 cycle? That is the sort of workaround I usually use, and it works quite well; however, being able to sync to a full musical bar brings more convenience, since you have more time to tweak the controls before the actual change kicks in.

Well, anyway. Keep up the great work.
regards,
/W

[bmoussay]

Hi,

I've been working on the same problem as you, and I've made also a simple patch to change the bar length in real time. The problems were the same as with your patch: erratic bar lenght change.
But what senso told you works perfectly: set the cycle in usine dashboard to 1, and then your patch will work (the bar lenght will change every bar, according to your choices).
So before the new version comes out, this is a good solution, of course you can't sync anything to the global cycle, but the bar sync works perfectly.
For instance having a beat box of 16 steps sync to "bar", and changing in real time the bar length gives amazing rythmic results.
Regards,

B.

[wildemar]

Hey, just now I realize that there is a new version out (and has been for several days) addressing the problem. Damn, you're quick! Do you actually do anything besides programming?

On that note: How about an auto-updater for Usine? At the rate they're coming out, such a tool would be a huge timesaver .

Keep up the good work.

/W

[wildemar]

Ahh, dang. Doesn't seem to work quite right yet. It is better than before, but still not quite right. In the 4 4 4 5 progression, it actually plays 4x4/4 and 1x5/4. And in almost all cases the cycle calculation is way off, meaning that the bar count jumps around erratically, even if the actual counts work out.

This is a toughy, I can see that.

regards
/W

[bmoussay]

Hello wildemar.

I've just posted this in the add-ons:
http://www.sensomusic.com/addons/index. ... 0,1,0,0,#5
This patch works ok in the new version of Usine.
The only remaining problem is the cycle counter in usine's dashboard that doesn't really count correctly the different bars.
But as for the bar lenght, Usine reacts correctly.
Olivier, maybe there is still something to fix about the relationship beetween cycles and bar lenghts.
From what I can see, sometimes the cycle counter resets to 1 in the middle of a bar when the bar lenght has just changed, so maybe it's a matter of when usine updates the bar number in the cycle (I'm not sure if I'm clear).
To be continued,
Regards,

B.

[runagate]

wildemar isn't a Gold Member so s/he can't download that add-on.

I'll try it out, though

[wildemar]

Weird, I thought I had replied to this before rungate . . .

Anyway. What he said.

/W

[runagate]

Wihout having looked into it more closely I think that perhaps we're looking at this in the wrong way. Nothing in midi-land is especially good at bar/beat and time signature. I will try to make something in SE for this, since I need it, too.

I have a question for Olivier - does Usine supposrt "host tempo update"?

I have at least one CK module that allows you to mess with host position detection and updating the info to the host itself.

[wildemar]

SE? CK?

Sonar Express, Cakewalk Kuitartracks?

[runagate]

Hehe SynthEdit and Chris Kerry, sorry.
I don't get on the net more than a couple minutes at most a day so I'll try to come back with something tonight *roll eyes* It's hard to even recall the things I say I intend to do once I am at home but I've written a note to remind me

[senso]

I have a question for Olivier - does Usine supposrt "host tempo update"?

not actually but very soon.

[Simonaki]

Hy / Bonjour


I've got a problem i would like to cross two rythmics , the first on 5/4 for exemple and another on 7/4 at THE Same tempo

But when i try this in a basic mode, one sequence play faster than the twice, i've try with the master cycle module but the out of lenght can't play more than 16 beats and i want to do this with 512 steps...

So who's the solution?



bonjour je me permet d'écrire en français puisque mon Anglais est absolument pitoyable, je cherche aà melanger deux step sequencer a des signatures rythmique différentes la premiere en 7/4 par exemple et la seconde en 5/4 se qui equivaut a mettre 7 step dans le premier sequenceur et 5 dans le second mais je cherche a se que ses deux modules sois au meme tempo et qu'il ne fase pas une acceleration par rapport a l'autre. LE mode loop avec son mode duration me semblais une solution mais je n'y suis pas arrivé, j'ai branché le module Master synch avec nomber of step out to input off bar/cycle lenght et ressortie le bar/cycle du module de synchro vers input duration du du sequencer. on ne peut pas envoyer plus de 16 step dans le module de mastersynch alors que je veux envoyer 512 step...

Peut etre me suis je mal exprimé mais j'ai espoir en vous amis d' Usine...

Bien a vous Simonakimou

[ethnix73]

Hi simonaki,

If you want two step sequencers playing at 7/4 and 5/4 at the same tempo, just put two step sequencers in loop mode, with 7 steps and 5 steps as you said...The're playing at the same tempo, but you have the feeling that one is playing faster. he's not playing faster: it doesn't have the same intervals. Just the sub-division of the tempo are changing...In drumming world, your exemple is called polyrythm.

If you want two step sequencers with the same intervals but with different duration (and so, tempo), put a A*B module (from math menu), link in A the outlet "duration" from the step sequencer with 5 steps, and in B the value 1,4 (aka 7 divided by 5). Link the outlet "out" from A*B to the inlet "duration" of the setp sequencer with 7 steps.

Welcome in Usine simonaki, but you will have to make some efforts in english actually


edit:

Like this, for solution 2:

[Simonaki]

Ohhh Thanks a lot, but it can be difficult if i want two different patch whose playing polyrythm and if i need all the time calculate "the value 1,4 (aka 7 divided by 5)" it's no way for live and metric's change ...But i take your solution for moment ...thanks a lot again and i will take some lesson of english...

[ethnix73]

you doesn't need to calculate all the time: Put a A/B module: outlet "num of steps" step sequencer 7 linked to the "A" inlet A/B, and link outlet"nom of steps" from the step sequencer 5 module to the inlet "B" of the A/B module. Link the outlet "out" from the A/B module to the inlet "B" of the A*B module. You will be able to change metrics in live situation. It should work...

Edit:
It's working, but i'm not sure it stays "in time" when you change the numbers of steps, i will have a look this evening...

[Simonaki]

Oh thanks Again I've try it's ok but no full for my brain i need two different patch and The master tempo is out for this patch So if i need modified master tempo there no change...I need a patch with only one step sequencer and an other patch with different instrument... I don't search "emiole" i'm lookink for The SAME TEMPO it's really the same tempo for different metrics

I've got an other question why when i put a step sequencer midi out in the "in of my instruments since like kontakt3 or Massive he don't send note Off and make cluster? I need put a midi transformer all the time...


Thanks again

[bsork]

Hi Simonaki, I'm not sure if I can help you with your rhythm problem, but I wonder what really you want as I can't be positively sure from what you write:

1) Changing time signatures: 4 bars of 5/4 followed by 2 bars of 7/4 followed by 8 bars of 5/4, etc, etc
2) Polyrhythm as Ethnix73 describes it: The 5/4 and the 7/4 has the same duration and the first beat of both play at the same time.
3) Parallell time signatures: The 5/4 and the 7/4 run parallell at the same BPM and will repeat for each 35/4.

About the step sequencer: it's like that by design. A lot of drum/percussion VSTs only need a NoteOn anyway, and as it is essentially a mono step sequencer, you could try to set your VSTs to monophonic - perhaps with poly release if that's possible on your instruments.

[bmoussay]

Hi,

About this question of polyrythms, bsork has perfectly set up the three possibilities, here are the ways I usually deal with them:

Quoting bsork:
1) Changing time signatures: 4 bars of 5/4 followed by 2 bars of 7/4 followed by 8 bars of 5/4, etc, etc
I made this patch for it
http://www.sensomusic.com/download.php? ... %204.1.pat
works correctly except for the bar counting in the dashboard (not so useful in general).

2) Polyrhythm as Ethnix73 describes it: The 5/4 and the 7/4 has the same duration and the first beat of both play at the same time.
Same division technique as Ethnix73 suggested.

3) Parallell time signatures: The 5/4 and the 7/4 run parallell at the same BPM and will repeat for each 35/4.
I use a syncho module to generate the speed (click) of the step modules (16 led, or 8 led, or any other rythmic value you can get with maths from the sync modules), I set the "sync" inlet of the steps to "button" and feed the "next step" inlet with the click. then you can have step modules all going at the same rate, but with different length. If ever from time to time you need to resart them together, just send a 0 at the same time to all you step's "step number" input.

Hope it can help, rgds,

B.

[Simonaki]

Thanks a lot Bmoussay It's a great active forum...i will test

[bsork]

I would like to add that the Local Synchro module can be used for setting up 2) or 3). From the manual:
It allows the creation of “poly-tempo” patches and workspace. The Local Synchro Module tempo is applied to of all VST, Piano-Roll, Sequenced Step, Sampler, Grain sampler, etc in the patch or sub-patchs.