XITE-3D MIDI Controller

[nay-seven]

I just see that there's a new add-on from luigiagostini , seems to be a specific (and big) one for his 3D project . i will invite him to explain us more .

here a video i found about his project : Link

[multiphone]

Hello Nay,

Yes !

I'm very curious to have more explanation.

I have found that : http://www.luigiagostinidigitalsolutions.com/ (If it is the same project)

Best

[r.erorr]

Probably Jean-Marc Duchenne is familar with those products and can comment something, because the focus is spatial.

[multiphone]

Hello,

I still understands that the 3D Surround 4 Xite introduce a vertical dimension with a horizontal spatial system of loudspeaker. And that the algorithm is the subject of many years of research. In such cases it is really essential to ear the result to judge, because for human the vertical spatial resolution is less accurate than locating a source in horizontal space. The positions of the ear in humans is of on each side of the head and not above and below the head

So if we must judge the vertical position of a sound source from its phase or intensity (More effects of rooms) is not so simple.

We can also see that this external rack simulates acoustic therefore should have control of reflections to optimize the result.

But, I'm very curious to have more explanation about it.

And Yes !

Jean Marc is probably the best specialist of spatialisation in éléctroacoustic music in France.

[luigiagostini]

Hello Nay-seven, Hervé and rerror,

Thank you for the interest in my work, I love what you're doing with Usine and I am happy to get in touch with you.

Yes, the link is correct, that is my website. I am producing hardware and software for 3D spatialization since 1997 (European Community Project EASY) and in the last 15 years I have done an expansion card for Apogee Rosetta800, the first X-spat boX, the second and a little modular player from SD card very comfortable in case of installations called X-spat player.

Now I am working on Sonic-core XITE (and Seelake Audiostation) and I have created a new workspace controllable via MIDI with some new algorithms derivated from 3D DBAP and my past experience. I do not use HRTF because I think is too much subjective and bounded to the pinna and torso configuration of the listener. More, I do not like the 3D effects dependent from an "hotspot", I prefer something that can be enjoyed by a group of persons free to move in the ambient. The height sensation is natural and evident because, La Palice docet, I have always used a setup similar to the cube in Ambisonics, a double quad where the positions on each plane are the same suggested by Dolby for its 5.1, excluding the center channel. In the past I have produced also some blu-ray that could be listened in 3D on a standard 7.1 home theater with the speakers in that position, but it was too much early, maybe when Dolby Atmos will be well known... The patch is a controller for the XITE-3D parameters but I think that could be easily adapted at any other 3D system controllable via MIDI CC, maybe using the very good modules and patches created by Hervé.

Please let me know if I have not answer to your questions, I will be happy to write again, ciao

Luigi

[multiphone]

Hello Luigi,

I'm realy happy to get in touch with you too.

Very nice work, some of yours solutions are realy interesting.

For my part i'm composer in electronic, électroacoustic and mixed music piece for concert, performance, cinéma, Dance, theatre, Radio, since 15 years and all of my project are multiphonic.

Firstly, sorry I did not know your work, I saw on your website some nice solutions, really practical, like the idea of multiphonic player on SD card. I have long sought a solution to this technical question for a sound installation without a computer. Where can I find this kind of player? How many audio output he has ?

Second, if I understand well the interfaces that you makes calculated the 3D DBAP (like) this is a dedicated processors with audio outputs? It works with a program that draws and automate the 3D trajectories and remote the interface that calculates the 3D DBAP? (In the case of XITE-3D)

The ADSS algorithm, (Auto Depth Spherical Surround) is an evolution of the 3D DBAP ?

This is an algorithm that will make an calculation of the placement of discrete sources for the best possible result in 3D with seven speakers ? (as pictured on the Xite-3D) Or it is a virtual calculation of placement ? ( Phase Like placement ?) Each speaker standing on a horizontal space ?

Of course the production of height sensation is natural, but for the moment the effects I got with eight speakers (In cubic position) are not quite satisfactory. I am looking for me too with the side of DBAP also a DBAP 2D module already exists in Usine. Now we need to experiment with quadratic distance 3D (which includes the Z-axis) or 3D DBAP and find an elegant way to represent the investment in 3D plant. The graphics capabilities of version 6 of Usine should allow us to go a little further in this direction. Thanks for sharing your controlr patch is inspiring for graphic solution.

I would be very happy to listen to things you have produced blue ray DVD, where can I get them ?

Sorry to all these questions but all this is really exciting.

I stay tuned

Best

[luigiagostini]

Hello Hervé,

I am glad to hear that you like some of my products, thanks.
I am following your work on Usine and I think that the two packages for multichannel audio you have done are fantastic.

About the player, I could provide it to you, if you are interested. Each unit has eight channels of output on 8 pin rca, one multipurposes stereo input and one SD slot. It is modular and you can "sample-sync" up to three units for 24 channels of outputs at 16 bit 44,1 kHz.. There is also a LAN port for remote control and you can assign an IP to the X-spat player. On the website of my old company, now in liquidation, you can find more information:
http://xspat.aegweb.it/new/inglese/x_ingplayer.html

For the second question the answer is yes, the XITE-3D has several sharc on board and the DSP is made by the hardware, the interface only send the positions of the speakers, of the listener (dynamic), and of the audio sources, plus a lot of parameters for the environment characterization.

I did ADSS like an enhancement of 3D DBAP because I didn't like the behaviour of the virtual audio source when it is close to the listener in the other spatialization systems. If I walk in your direction while I repeat the same phrase with the same intensity, you hear the volume of my voice increasing and when I am in front of you the volume is at the max level. As you know it wasn't like this in traditional dbap, so I added various parameters changing volume and eq of the sound while it moves in the environment.

The fourth question is difficult to be answered, the system is made by a group of algorithms that work concurrently and the scope is to simulate the position of several sound sources in the 3D space using a determinate set of speakers. The number and the positions of the speakers are totally free, but if you want to obtain a really immersive 3D soundscape you have to use 8 speakers and to put some of them on a higher level. I hope to have the occasion to let you hear my products, one of these days... who knows.

Now it is my turn to make questions you made me curious when you talk about Usine 6, maybe there will be also Open GL or similar support to graphics? I have done also a reverb on Easine, an FDN with a Schroeder nested, are you interested in early reflections calculation? And if yes, what kind of approximation are you using?

About the blu-ray, I will upload the ISO somewhere and send you the link to download since I do not have any copy anymore, sorry. Or you prefer just a DTS HD Master Audio file of one or two pieces?

All the best

Luigi

[multiphone]

Hello,

Ok, thanks for the link about the player i ask your distributor for price.

One question more about your 3D DBAP Model. A fully dedicated software would not be possible? With a User Module for Usine? Have you tried to reproduce a model even simpler by patching in Usine ?

I tried to make a spat with the most advanced models that act on the equalizer but the results were not very good. Tell me if you do a demo somewhere, I'll try to come and listen to it. Why not Paris? I would be very curious to hear that.

Early reflections calculation ? Ho ! My professor of architectural acoustics must be quite old now And I must say I've never try to build a reverberation in Usine. VST plug-ins are so powerful in this area... But I would be very glad to hear that gives your reverberation made with Easine.

Thanks for the ISO Image of your DVD. I can read all formats, give me the piece that you prefer.

All the best

[luigiagostini]

Hi Hervé,

I have tried but the DSP power necessary is still too much, it is still better to have a dedicated hardware, in my opinion.
I mean, it works, and I am proposing a "software-only" suite of plugins which include 3D spatialization, but it is fine only for a max of 8 outputs on a powerful PC. If you need to go on 16 or 24 speakers, maybe coming from 25-30 tracks, it is very difficult to work in the right way with a single PC hosting the sequencer, the standard plugins and the ones dedicated for 3D.
Usine is going in the right direction and maybe with version 6 you could change that scenario, I am looking forward to see it...

I will post my patch for 3D DBAP, thanks for asking it, but you could easily do a similar one if you want. DBAP is only the base. The elements in simulation that makes the difference, in my opinion, are the reflections and the walls materials and configuration. I am working on this at the moment because the approximations we are doing considering only regular cubes or parallelepipeds and adding random paths of reflections for reverberation is the actual limit in 3d environment simulation, in my opinion.

I will send you a demo version of a VST I am selling if you want, just tell me at what email I must send the authorizer.
My email is luigiagostini2@gmail.com

For the demo I could ask support to a friend of mine that is studying at IRCAM at the moment, I will let you know.

All the best

Luigi

[multiphone]

Hi Luigi,

Thanks for this very exiting conversation.

Ok, i understand perfectly the forces in action.
I will build a prototype of 3D quadratic distance calculation and to test CPU comsumption. I have no way however to model the acoustics and materials of the room. A simple 3D spat yet to see.
With Usine 6 I think things will change.

I think the DSP must be predominantly used for modeling of the room and materials, which are very complex calculations when taken in their whole. If they make just one model DBAP 3D (like) this must be more efficient for CPU. The last Ivy Bridge processors are powerful enough. The "Thread" management in Usine, are another question or how the processor will allocate tasks (Windows rule). We see more clearly with Usine very soon.

Thank you infinitely, I would like to test your 3D spat (I am sending you a mail), a test of eight speakers (or more ...) at home is possible. I work currently in my new studio personal with more space, it will be completely dedicated to multiphonics.

Best regards