Usine VST multiple MIDI into Live

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 11:48

Hello community,

I am trying to route 2 MIDI streams from 2 separate tracks in usine vst into 2 tracks in live to control 2 VSTi insts. Each track in usine has its midi out selector set to different outs but when receiving in live both streams play in 1 track at the same time. even though both midi tracks in live are receiving from different usine inputs. I don't know how to solve this. Maybe a usine/live power user can help? thanks.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 30 Dec 2010, 12:52

I'm not an ableton specialist but i suppose you have to deal with midi canal..?
use , for example a midi transformer module to set different canal for each track in Usine vst then choose those canal in Live tracks..?

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 13:13

yes the channels are already set to 1 and 2 in the midi out module of each track in usine. But maybe I should use a midi transformer? I will try this. thanks for the help.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:23

mm, I've only Live lite 7 here and I've test , but can't find any way to choose the midi canal from the Usine track..
the channel choice only appear when you choose an hardware midi interface, no when you route from a midi track..?
any live users here to help..?
23fx..?

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 14:52

as you posted at 14:23:23 i will check

but far from my beloved usine for now... hope i can check tonight.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 17:08

indeed , i don't know how to solve this, when creating 2 tracks in usine, each one with it's own channel,
live can repick midi from usine track, but on the drop menu we only see one usinevst output, and can't choose the channel,
so booth are merged.

by waiting i would filter via pitching way up one of the other and using the scale of ableton, but find it strange,
i suppose we could access booth independantly maybe..., any ideas olivier?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 30 Dec 2010, 17:25

really strange ableton can't filter midi in channel..!!
anyway , i suppose you can use a vst to do the job
here a link : http://www.niallmoody.com/ndcplugs/ndcmidi.htm
there's a vst named MIDI Channel Filter
if you create a new midi track in Live and filter channel 1 with this plugin, route this track to vst1 and same for vst 2..must work..?

Floego · Unread post by **Floego** » 30 Dec 2010, 18:06

Interesting topic!
-Testing in reaper , Usine behaves as expected relating midi channel routing. good!.
-In cakewalk music creator it could not even do midi out through vst! but this is a limitation of music creator I think.

I'll test the vst midi filters and will tell.

Floego · Unread post by **Floego** » 30 Dec 2010, 18:58

I don't know why but the vst midi filter just don't do anything inside Live lite.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:07

in fact , this don't work..
I've test several midi monitor vst plugins and Live seems to transform any midi channel you send to channel 1 !!

and i've test with other vst sending midi( like midi looper ) not only Usine...something curious here..

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:16

Testing with two instances of Usine VSTI in Usine as a host it is obvious that any midi outs on any track in Usine VSTI are sent to all Usine VSTI instances or "tracks" all at once. It would seem logical to me if each track only sent midi to it's corresponing track or VSTI instance, or else as selected in the midi output option, which would need to be able to select from all possible VST instances (32?) (or how about an "additional midi output" module? this would be nice and versatile!
I reported this problem a long time ago but it never got dealt with for some reason...

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:21

yes, guru but here the problems is about midi channel who are all converted to channel 1 by Live...or we miss something..

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:35

Live has always converted all midi channels from VSTI's to channel one. It's beyond me why Live is still crippled like this but it is. The "workaround" with Usine "should" be to use more than one instance of Usine VSTI and then fetch midi from each Usine channel in Live, however this is also impossible as Usine VST splits midi outputs on each track to all tracks.

What I mean is say you have to midi channels in Live, each with an instance of Usine VSTI, then you create two midi channels in Live and have each one get midi from a Usine track, and then you playback channel 1 midi on track 1 in Usine, you will see the same midi signal midi appear in both midi tracks in Live. Does this make sense?

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 19:44

mmm strange. i had no luck as well with midi filter.

live indeed doesn't allow the midi channel filter from a vsti other track, wich is very absurd and would solve the pb easily.
but it's supposed to catch several 'outputs' (not midi ch) from a vsti. and maybe we could see those individual outputs from usine, that's what guru logic suggest? dk then if live or usine related. i could never test another multi midi out vsti..
@soundmind, you say: even though both midi tracks in live are receiving from different usine inputs
you could pick two differents usine outputs from live? I can only catch one here.. or you meant differents 'channels' out of usine?

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:01

Picture this...
When you have Usine VST inserted on a track in Live, you have all of Usine inserted on that track. That means that all audio and midi goes in and out through that one track in Live.
Now as soon as you create another track in Live and add another "copy" of Usine, you are actually only adding another input and output for Usine into live.
The VST audio interface is self explanatory . Each Usine VST inserted is similar to a physical audio port and can be used and manipulated just like an audio port, except instead of physical audio ports on a soundcard, you get VST audio ports.
It is not the same with the midi in Usine VST. In the standalone version you get to choose which midi port each tracks midi gets received from or sent to, but in the VST version you do not. All midi inputs get from all inputs and all midi outputs get sent to all outputs. In some hosts this can be compensated with midi channnel filtering but in Live it cannot.
I think the midi routing in Usine VST needs an overhaul as in my opinion midi and audio routing should behave exactly the same, plus as it stands, Usine VST, Live and multi-channel midi are seemingly impossible. (except maybe by elaborate message transformations or perhaps an OSC to VST midi plugin?)

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:13

yeah i see what you mean, i didn't tested but certainly two different instances should be independant.

i was thinking that even one single instance could have multi out, being audio and midi.
i when you drop a multiout vsti in live , you can pick from the scroller the independant audio out, from the single vsti instance,
could that work the same with midi? can vsts have 'real' differents midi outputs?

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:14

i think gurulogic is spot on the issue here. When you have more than one track in usine vst, you can create a "copy" of the usine VST in your host which is just an input from one single track in usine. For audio it works great, every track in usine can have its own input into live as expected but when sending midi it seems like usine sends to every track in live that has a "copy" of the usine VST loaded. I've never been able to solve this. I hope to find a workaround.

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:34

For info, the next Usine will contain a new product called 'Easine' (and Easine VST).
Unlike Usine, EasineVst will allow several independent instances loaded at the same time.

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:59

Easine sounds great! I still hope someday the midi routing can be looked at in more depth, if for no other reason than to maintain better compatibility between Usine Standalone and Usine VST workspaces. Plus in my opinion, the current implementation creates confusion. (Or at least it confuses me...) but anyways, I don't want to wear out my welcome too quick

...

btw, http://oscvstbridge.sourceforge.net/ might be a workaround if anyone is smart enough to figure it out?

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 20:59

that is some great news! I am looking forward to these developments. but I have some patches that communicate data with each other and Im assuming this would only be possible in the current usine VST so it would be nice to see if MIDI could be seperated in usineVST. thanks for all the efforts senso.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 21:57

sorry if im getting a big ot but as i have two ableton-usine users i dlike to understand:
because im a bit lost in what i assumed. i only tested mono stuff for now.

let's say i wanna generate 4 differents sources from usine VSTi and get those 4sounds as independant tracks in live.
do you have to create 4 differents usines instances? i could have 4 outs from a single vsti instance normally no?

because here i test with battery that is multi-out, and if creating a new track in live picking out of battery track, i can scroll
and pick one of the 32 outs of the single battery vst instance.
If i try to pick usine track, i don't have access to independant tracks, i just have pre/post with no busses listing...
mmmm what do i miss....

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 22:30

mmm ah ok i catch now the each new "copy" activate an usine input.
i was thinking it would behave like usal vsti, a single instance having accessible multiple in/outs, that could be handy too.
still, lot of thingz to test with this system..mmm

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 22:57

Yes it is a bit confusing at first but then its makes "sens". I actually think its quite flexible and is perfect for audio routing. but unfortunately live has its MIDI limitations which causes problems with midi routing. My imagination for the new easine version i think might solve all the issues now that i think of it because then live would treat usine as a single plugin and you could make how ever many outputs needed and then route them using lives track routing scheme? But im not sure though. I think midi routing in live is crippled but maybe someone else knows more?

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 30 Dec 2010, 23:14

I'm pretty sure in Easine VST in Live you will need to have one instance loaded for each separate midi part that you want to send to Live and the instances won't be able to communicate between each other the same as is possible with the full Usine, so I don't think this entirely solves the problem but it does provide other interesting options.

It probably won't make a darned fifference but you could email the Abes and ask wtf is up with the midi limitations in Live. I know I have (not in the same words) and nothing has ever changed, but the more voices grumbling, the better.

soundmind · Unread post by **soundmind** » 30 Dec 2010, 23:21

yeah im pretty sure its a well known limitation. one would assume with the integration of max into live that they would "fix" the midi limitation but maybe it is too hard for the devs to accomplish without a serious reworking of the code?

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 30 Dec 2010, 23:46

indeed, i need more deep testing, but it seems quite an 'as usual intelligent' system senso have chosen
, despite what i thought at start. (i felt it would be more limited but seems equivalent and more worflow friendly).

live can succesfully drive some midi to one of the 16 individual ins of usine, and we get the access to those 16 choice
from routing scroller, so maybe the reverse (usine x midi outs) could be reachable by live routing as well?
i could never test that from another vst in live, maybe live is corrupt regarding this, any one succesfully tested?

yeah real shame live can't channel filter, that would work directly as is...

Floego · Unread post by **Floego** » 30 Dec 2010, 23:52

I think that Ableton Live have this kind of limitations not only with Midi output of vsti's but with the Midi inputs as well, so if , for example, you try to 'feed' Live's midi input using some external signal, Live will flatten the data to only one channel before giving it to Usine vsti.

About Midi integration, IMHO Live made great progress when v7 came out but v8 has not bring any Midi improvements.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 31 Dec 2010, 00:12

yeah that's really bad, even internally i just tested usine sending on several channels, as soon as live get to one midi track it's indeed flatten as one only. pffff

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 31 Dec 2010, 02:52

maybe usine processing each midi output to fit specific note ranges and then a pizmidi plugin (etc) could scoop note ranges in live and re-scale then re-direct them to different VST's..? way too much micromanagement but if it might work if it were life and death, lol...

Oh crap, I forgot. I already have a way. It involves VST plugins in Usine that directly access midi ports, and virtual midi ports receiving the midi in Live..doh!
(ps Senso, Usine native modules that could directly access midi in and midi out ports would make lots of sense)

So yea, there is a workaround for this problem, I've just been out of the loop and have forgotten everything as usual.
Pizmidi MidiOut and any virtual midi (loopback) should work.

23fx23 · Unread post by **23fx23** » 31 Dec 2010, 17:41

yeah good idea, im quite sure we can make a note filter natively with the scale plugin or a midi rack with note ranges
"gates" as a chain, seems not that complex.

gonna make some test with this or midiport and report if find a nice way..

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