strange midi behavior

[seamus]

A strange behavior with MIDI seems to happen to me only randomly.
It is hard to pinpoint the cause but I can describe it and possibily someone else might have the same issue or know what im talking about.

whether I load a larger more complex workspace or a simpler one after playing my ewi into some vst's for awhile the midi starts to literally play itself. As if it was recorded a kind of Ghost midi playback occurs. It seems to be things that i had played in the last few minutes or so. It comes back at me randomly and kind of jumbled. The only solution so far is to quit Usine and relaunch it.

I would hate for this to happen on a gig.!!

Anyone else with this problem?

[nay-seven]

never see this , its look like a kind of midi overflow
have you try to activate midi in to see if it's came from your controller or inside Usine..?
any patch like the midi accumulator patch somewhere..?
any midi settings possible for the ewi/midi interface .?

[mat]

i had exact this, too. drove me nuts ´cause it was not to reproduce. "rubber-midi".

it was my midi interface or the driver. had to get a new one, now works perfect.

whats ewi? blow controller?

[seamus]

Yes an ewi is a wind controller. It does send alot of data. There is alot of pitch bend info and aftertouch. More data than a keyboard.
It comes from usine not the controller. It does seem like an overflow type of issue.
I never had this in other hosts though. It's not my interface I don't think. Rme babyface. I haven't put a midi accumulator anywhere.
Perhaps it's too much data.

[mat]

the babyface should be ok. my hammerfall never had this, too.

i have a lot of midi data too with the hpd15, mtc+pitch+aftertouch+hihat controller data+D&B fingerdrumming on 150bpm+machine generated 64th rolls all on one midi channel. there might be timing issues on midi overload, but the "going up-down, playing midi long after stop playing" thing for me is a driver thing for shure, cause now i know usine can handle it.

fact is: with the roland 2in 2out usb interface it did exact this and with the NI komplete audio 6 i did the heaviest midi tests without problems.

i use midiox as a monitoring tool to see how mididata is received.

i guess it also depends on the combination of OS (64bit windows?), combined with the chipset of the usb controller and the OS-configuration...

i would go to a shop, borrow another good interface and test. i found the NI komplete mididriver to be very good.

i spend days, almost kicking my laptop with this and i started hating usine, but, well, another interface - ok ...

[seamus]

i also have an RME Fireface UC and didnt ever have midi issues. I have been on the babyface less time. You could be right that it is the interface.
I have only used the babyface with USINE. I will do more testing to see if it is indeed the interface.

i guess I could use midiox to see if the weird midi loopback is coming from the RME or from the BABYFACE.

[mat]

good luck with that.

so the other way round: if usine works with the fireface then it should be something else than usine.

edit:

here is my old thread regarding this:

http://sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2854

[seamus]

i didnt use the fireface with Usine yet. I was using the fireface with Ableton.
I will test the fireface in the the upcoming days. I sent a tech support message to RME.

[Fléau]

I had the same issue with a kaosspad driving a scratch-looper:
i remember that it happened less often with midi monitoring option off,
you can try to use the dashboard with a 'reset all midi device' button ( like a panic button) cause i remember i had to switch my midi input to 'none' then set it again (in the midi option panel).

[alland]

I have had that "Ghost playing" few times, couple times it was in gig situation and once quite fun (I was not on stage at a moment to immediately sort out the thing .

I use Korg Pa2x and Korg M3 connected via USB MIDI to control several VSTi in Usine. It seems, that this "Ghost MIDI" (somewhat imitates my previous playing) comes in from Korg Pa2x MIDI (Midi monitoring shows it), has happened always after Usine has been used for an hour or so but really only in few percents of similar cases (running USine for longer period, playing MIDI a lot).

I will definitely try that "reset all midi devices button", so far at stage situation I just shut down/restart Usine. It has happened only couple times in home studio when I have time to try this and that and pinpont issues.

[mat]

i would not go on stage with this thing

nervous enough, and then a 70Hz or 4000Hz sound builds up and 20% of the audience has a hearing problem after :rolleyes: :/

@alland:

yeah, its like a rubber delay, it does what you did, but without any timing. it happened even minutes after start playing for me.

but for my opinion its not the midi device, but the interface/driver, as you say.

edit:

well,

@berenice

if switching midi input off and on helps, it COULD have to do with usine actually, kind of midi-loop-back or so ...

[bsork]

if switching midi input off and on helps, it COULD have to do with usine actually, kind of midi-loop-back or so ...

Just a random idea: You shouldn't by any chance send your MIDI stream out again with the "Send MIDI to Usine" module?

[mat]

no. never had this module running. to scary about midi loop backs! can only be a mess if not carefully filtered ...

apart from that: i hope i got it solved forever with the interface

[seamus]

I still have the ghost midi problem. Changing a midi interface did not solve the problem.

In reading the forums I have realized that I am not alone in this problem. These are also ewi players who are using high quality interfaces.

http://www.sensomusic.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1116


Specifically:

wiskow
Member
Re: Fighting with MIDI in and out: bugs or human mistakes?
I have MIDI In lag problems.
I play the keyboard and notes will play at very random times. Some notes do sound right away.
My problem happens about 15min or so after I restart Usine. Sooner some times.
I experience no MIDI problems when I use FLStudio.

andrewchi
Gold Member
Re: Fighting with MIDI in and out: bugs or human mistakes?
With the latest version I have far less MIDI problems,
except with my Akai EWI, which sends a lot of controller information like breath, volume, aftertouch, glide on off, ...
I still have the problem.
After 20 min or so, it starts playing by itself. All kinds of weird notes. It even outputs it to the midi out and my external
module (micromodular) starts flashing too. Quitting Usine and restarting the software gives me another 20 minutes of EWI MIDI joy.
The midi-yoke solution works, but of course it would be swell to stay just in Usine standalone...

the midi yoke solution seems to be this:

I use MIDI-OX to route the instrument MIDI to MIDI-Yoke and set MIDI-Yoke as my MIDI IN for Usine.



I will try the midi yoke solution to see if this helps.

It seems to me this is a major hurdle to actually using Usine live. My midi input has to be stable!




I am also using an EWI and sending lots of aftertouch info as well as alot of pitchbend info.

I never had problems like this on a mac. Is it because windows has crappy midi drivers? Or is it a Usine problem?

I have yet to test other windows hosting software. I will try Brainspawn forte.

As an EWI player playing live this is a major drawback.

[nay-seven]

yes, we have to investigate, but it's not easy cause actually we can't reproduce this problem
btw, the post you refer date from 2008, so it's not really an help ?

[seamus]

The posts I was looking at are detailing the same problem. So maybe the problem still exists?
It could be more an issue with EWI's sending out lots of midi info.

I am trying to see routing from my interface through midi-ox to a virtual midi port (in my case loopmidi) helps in any way.

I am saving up for a trip to France to hopefully meet up with Senso and Nay. Some Usine lessons and bug control.

[nay-seven]

Yes using a virtual midi cable, or maybe a light appz like vst host or cantablite lite before Usine, let you insert some midi filter for example to see if you can suppress some midi messages.
Don't know the ewi , but any chance he send sys ex message or exotic ones that are not needed in Usine ?

[seamus]

I don't want to be premature but so far the routing through midi ox then into usine seems to help. I will report after more testing:)

[nay-seven]

cool, hope you'll confirm those results

[seamus]

well so far midi ox feeding loopmidi bus then into Usine seems more stable. It finally did the same thing today. Randomly starts playing notes you played into usine a few minutes ago. It does seem a little more stable though so for now I will keep this setup. It is still not perfect. Makes ya nervous going on stage with a computer.

[seamus]

Im happy to report that my ewi (midi wind controller) responds to usine better when I send less info to it.
By just sending aftertouch instead of the additional breath and velocity info Usine seems more stable. I dont have to use the reset midi devices button nearly as much.
I also turned off trace in.
So i think the "ghost midi " problems are related to overloading Usine with too much data.
Perhaps Usine is more sensitive in this way.
Im happy nonetheless.

[nay-seven]

Cool !

[seamus]

It still happens although less.
Hopefully Senso can eventually improve this.

[jeremysdemo]

It still happens although less.
Hopefully Senso can eventually improve this.

could you give us a rundown on your midi stream?

eg. MID IN- Windcontroller>PC Interface>Midiox>Usine
MIDI OUT>PC interface>modules?

what you are describing is a typical midi loop or delay effect.

I have a controller that does this purposefully to create looooong midi echos, (JL Cooper Fadermaster).

BTW what are you using to record Midi in Usine?

in the Midi loopers I am building in Usine and using CPU rarely goes over 10% and hoovers around 2% for the most part.

at one point I was filtering Usine output data through the same hardware I was filtering my instruments through and a loop like what you described happened (with MAX based loopers).

in my situation it turned out to be my own midi loop created with external hardware, using MIDI OX and monitoring different inputs and outputs it's fairly easy to see where these echos are coming from, either an external hardware loop or internal software engine.

my solution was using two different MIDI interfaces one for bringing data in and one for sending it out to the hardware modules.

jerm

[seamus]

ewi into midi ox into loopmidi to usine.
i tried in the beginning a more simple routing of ewi to babyface midi port to usine but that wasnt working as well.
i send aftertouch to control the volume of the synths. i simplified my midi stream by turning off breath control. there is a fair amount of pitch bend and portamento at times.
the best would be to send a midi file. i will try that.

[jeremysdemo]

ewi into midi ox into loopmidi to usine.

great that is the Midi IN.

I did not know you had "loop midi" going, information like that is helpful when trying to recreate behavior.

SO what does the MIDI OUT situation look like? eg. what is playing the midi notes, softsynth/DAW/hardware modules.

i tried in the beginning a more simple routing of ewi to babyface midi port to usine but that wasnt working as well.
i send aftertouch to control the volume of the synths. i simplified my midi stream by turning off breath control. there is a fair amount of pitch bend and portamento at times.
the best would be to send a midi file. i will try that.

Midi takes minimal CPU to process even with all that aftertouch or breath control, if you are experiencing Usine performance related issues it may be audio related.
You can find out how Usine deals with just the midi data by disabling audio audio in the Global settings tab, of course you will have to route the Midi data out to a DAW, hardware synth modules or keyboard to hear it.

if you do feel you are experiencing some sort of data lag due to breath control or excessive aftertouch signals you also can filter them out in Midi OX pre-Usine without having to disable them on your hardware.
Also does the loooong echo you described earlier happen without Midi OX initiated? believe it or not Midi OX can cause midi loops itself if by chance you happen to have outputs of USine going into Yoke's that become inputs of Usine or midi in port.

I send the midi looper patch tons of aftertouch and pitch bend data via my Roland GI-10 and controllers and it never seems to skip a beat, but I have AUDIO disabled on my USine midi builds as I am not using any softsynths.

jerm

[sebr]

I've got the same problem with a focusrite saffire pro 14 audio device and a keyboard for playing a vst piano. The workaround for me seems to be a setup like seamus and blocking the realtime midi messages wíth midi ox. there were no ghosts playing the piano since then.

[seamus]

Still having issues. Ghost feedback. It's my only real complaint. Maybe I need a new midi interface. Babyface rme and Alesis usb2midi seem to cause probs. it's too bad cause I love usine. It happened today at a recording session. Like someone took over and played all the stuff I was playing backwards.

[jeremysdemo]

Still having issues. Ghost feedback. It's my only real complaint. Maybe I need a new midi interface. Babyface rme and Alesis usb2midi seem to cause probs. it's too bad cause I love usine. It happened today at a recording session. Like someone took over and played all the stuff I was playing backwards.

still it would have been nice to know your MIDI OUT situation.

whenever you are looking for help telling people your in/out hookups when it comes to midi is best.

well so far midi ox feeding loopmidi bus then into Usine seems more stable

have you tried making a normal midi input box and another output in Usine instead of using the busses? eg. rightclick transpose box side tab, midi out option.

I can't get the buses to work, just use regular midi out here, so unable to recreate problem (that and don't have any clue as to the midi out situation)....one has to open ones mind to the possibility it is not software related and there may be a physical hardware loop going on, then, Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth

jerm

[seamus]

I send to a midi bus to all my synths. I suppose that it would be worth trying different midi routing.
I will try and give a more detailed description and upload some files. It's a tough problem to eliminate as it is so intermittent.
Never had this problem with other software.

[jeremysdemo]

I did want to mention I loaded your patch and no loops of any kind were created on my machine.....(using a MIDI OUT module not found in the patch)

do you have any hardware connected to your PC that has two way midi communication or is there a midi cable coming out of your computer to external hardware that also has a midi cable going into your computer? (eg. does your ewi receive MIDI in for setting changes?)

IF it was the patch alone it should create a midi loop on any system it is loaded on, so there is something you have setup differently than other users loading the patch.

you never did say if your midi out has anything going on, if you even have one, midi hardware sound modules etc..are you using softsynths? are they being recording in a DAW? lots of other things can create loops in Windows besides this patch.

jerm

[seamus]

jeremy thanks for your insight.
The midi out is only to softsynths via a midi bus in usine.
the ewi does not use a midi in. It sends program change, note on/off channel aftertouch and pitch bend and portamento.
i tried also blocking "realtime midi messages and sys ex" in midi ox. I dont think the ewi sends any of that but i could be wrong.
I switched from 48samples buffer to 64 on my audio interface but that shouldnt have anything to do with it.
I WILL SAY THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS HAVE BEEN AN IMPROVEMENT! very little problems.
so thanks for your continued thoughts on this matter.

[woodslanding]

I have had this quite frequently, with every midi interface I've ever used. Random stuff I was playing a minute earlier starts playing back. I have witnesses on the gigs from several different bands!

There is a RESET MIDI INTERFACES control in the dashboard object in usine, and I have it assigned to a button in my WKP. It always works for me. You could even assign it to a footswitch....

I believe it is a windows problem, although obviously many hosts do not seem to exhibit it. Maybe it's a function of Delphi, I don't know.

HTH
-eric