Sync to External Clock?

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 28 Oct 2012, 21:33

Greetings!

I was wondering if it's possible to sync Usine to external MIDI clock?

More precisely, actually I'm looking for a way to sync some Reaktor VST ensembles to a MIDI clock coming from Mobius looper VST.
I'm using Reaper as a DAW to host the VST-s, but Reaper doesn't accept the tempo coming from Mobius.

It seems that people have done it with Bidule inside Reaper, but I'm more fond of Usine

The procedure with Bidule as a VST was to send MIDI clock from Mobius VST to MIDI Yoke and then Bidule receives the clock from there.

Is something like this possible also with Usine?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 28 Oct 2012, 22:18

have you try the patch Receive midi clock ( browser/usine/midi ) ?

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 29 Oct 2012, 00:17

Seems to work in stand alone, can't test with Usine VST, because I have only the demo version:

The tempo seems to jump around a bit before it settles down to a value.
Also for some reason only the integer part of the value is received.

Don't know if this is adjustable somewhere in Mobius or Usine....

EDIT: So, at the moment they aren't really in sync.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 29 Oct 2012, 09:04

I don't use Moebis myself, so not sure i can help about it. Maybe some users can help
about Usine vst, maybe the better solution would be to synchronize moebius with reaper, as Usine will be synchronized too, no more problems..?

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 29 Oct 2012, 13:44

nay-seven wrote:I don't use Moebis myself, so not sure i can help about it. Maybe some users can help
about Usine vst, maybe the better solution would be to synchronize moebius with reaper, as Usine will be synchronized too, no more problems..?

Ideally I'd like Reaper to be the slave and Mobius the master - this way I don't have to start my looping with a metronome click or rhythm track.

The problem is that it's not possible to sync Reaper to Mobius.
It is possible to sync Mobius to Reaper, but that doesn't solve my problem.

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 29 Oct 2012, 14:41

ok, but where is Usine in this routing..?

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 29 Oct 2012, 15:43

Usine would be in Reaper as a VST and Mobius inside Usine.

The minimal solution would be to just host the other VST-s that need tempo inside Usine VST along Mobius and use Reaper for recording and other VST-s.

But if Usine could translate the tempo to something that Reaper understands (MTC I think), then possibly Usine could be the master to Reaper.

Here's an old thread with some more detailed explanations:
http://www.circularlabs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 29 Oct 2012, 18:37

I'm afraid you complicated things and in the end you added the risk of errors in this whole thing ..?
a plug-in inside an other plug-in which control the host...?
any way to use an other work-flow..?

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 29 Oct 2012, 21:40

Another way would be to switch from Reaper to something else - Live for an example.
Or not use time synced instruments drum-machines, sequencers etc.
Or start with a click or rhythm track with a predetermined tempo.

All those are not to my liking, but I guess I have to.

gurulogic · Unread post by **gurulogic** » 29 Oct 2012, 23:43

maybe try with pizmidi midi out to simplify the task? http://thepiz.org/plugins/?p=midiOut

Kaspar · Unread post by **Kaspar** » 30 Oct 2012, 00:30

gurulogic wrote:maybe try with pizmidi midi out to simplify the task? http://thepiz.org/plugins/?p=midiOut

How would I use it, please explain?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 10 Dec 2012, 03:41

I'm trying to run Möbius as VST in Usine. I want Möbius as Master and I'm running "Midi Clock detect" to get the clock.
As kaspar wrote, they arent in sync at tempos higher than 60 bpm.
It seems that Usine doesn't detect all pulses.
I also tested Möbius with Ableton live and it seems to be fine.
Any ideas why this happens?

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 10 Dec 2012, 23:56

Problems fixed...
Don't know how, but it seems to work.
Did a driver update for my fast track pro and it works...

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 20 Apr 2013, 10:26

percuson wrote:I'm running "Midi Clock detect" to get the clock.

Can you explain that Percuson ?
My turn to try to sync Usine to Mobius, and I have the troubles Kaspar mentioned.
Thanks

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 20 Apr 2013, 13:34

Hi la tenaille!
I was using midi clock detect to figure out if Möbius really sends the midi clock. And also used midi clock to see, if Usine gets the right tempo. I used to hav the problem, that Usine didn't get the right tempo from the receive Midi Clock Patch ( ! it doesn't work as a sub patch!)
This seems to work now, but there is still the problem (belonging to the architecture of midi clock) to get the right starting point.. Usine starts playing and afterwards it is calculating the tempo. That's why both are running "out of phase". You need to send another midi start command with möbius to work correctly. Ableton live works much better with syncing to möbius, but I don't know, how they make it.

A workaround for this problem is not to use möbius as master. I record my "master loop" in Usine with the sampler and Usine gets the tempo as a slave. Every further loop is recorded with möbius...

edit:
the jumping around in tempo is caused by the receive midi clock patch (the way it calculates the tempo)
you can set the shown tempo to xxx.xx by editing the calc tempo sub patch.
delete the round module, and display the tempo with a fader set to x.xx. There were some other things to change, but I don't remember them. Actually I can't try this out, since I don't have Usine installed at the moment.

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 20 Apr 2013, 14:05

Hi percuson

You need to send another midi start command with möbius to work correctly

How can I do that ?

I record my "master loop" in Usine with the sampler and Usine gets the tempo as a slave. Every further loop is recorded with möbius...

I prefer keeping all the samples in Mobius... in fact I would only need usine to be sync for my audio fx (delays, filters...), I don't use the sequencer (for now!).

I also need to learn what's inside a midi clock message, if you have a link

La Tenaille · Unread post by **La Tenaille** » 20 Apr 2013, 14:52

cross posts

I've edited the calc tempo sub patch following your advice, and the tempo is now more precise even still being unstable.

The weird thing is if I trace the midi in, everything is here and in sync in the console :

[11540] IN:002B2936:250-Start [Chan=9]
[11541] IN:002B4CD0:252-Stop [Chan=9]
[11542] IN:002B4FFC:251-Continue [Chan=9]
[11543] IN:002BC2AE:252-Stop [Chan=9]

there must be a solution to route these messages to Usine without delay...

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 20 Apr 2013, 15:16

midi start is a function in möbius. create a button, or link it to a midi footswitch.
you can also set Tracks Setup -> Synchronization -> Out Sync Manual Start.
But for this working, you need to modify the receive midi clock patch (it starts playing, if it receives a midi clock signal - you have to bind this only to midi start events)

Your question to record the master loop in Usine:
I do that with my looper (download - it is not finished yet). In simple words it is recording, calculating the tempo and setting the tempo to Usine.
Möbius is set to "Host sync" and takes the tempo from usine. So every track recorded with möbius will be in sync with the Master Loop recorded in Usine.

Two very simple explanations of midi clock:
http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technot ... 5940408679
http://www.blitter.com/~russtopia/MIDI/ ... /clock.htm

The problem with midi clock is that it takes about 1 cycle (when playing!) to get the tempo. so you have to wait for a while to hav it in sync.... That's because midi clock only exists of pulses and Usine has to calculate the tempo. And because software midi clocks aren't that stable (I think this is belonging to the calculation in blocks), calculating always takes a while to get a useful value. And this is also the cause for minimal changes in tempo of the slave. But this shouldn't be a problem if you are only using audio fx.

percuson · Unread post by **percuson** » 20 Apr 2013, 23:37

Hi la tenaille!

Sure the console is in sync. And also the Midi Clock patch tries to. There is no delay inside usine. The problem is how the patch calculates the tempo. Belonging to the midi clock specification it will be difficult to do that without a delay.
But maybe I have an idea to make that faster

hesspet · Unread post by **hesspet** » 16 Jun 2013, 17:19

Hello,

I read this discussion. Today I've a similar problem to sync to an external source. It is independet wheter this is a extern midi source or it is a internal source.

The problem is, that the "receive midi clock" does not work correct from my point of view. It computes the speed, that's it. There is no interal rescync to the extern clock. Some minor timing issues (delays of the computed frames) are added and the timing goes out of sync. (I think this is what percuson meant) If you open the patch, you didn't find a direct connection between the clock and master sync module. This is the reason why external devices does not sync correct after a while. The trigger to sync the start of a measure (or to a quater note or cycle) is missing. (Which is a comon problem of the midi specification, yes)

I tried to use the song position pointer. This has the same problem.

My solution:

I build up a counter from the start, let it count for each clock to (96 * 2)-1, The next clock must be the next start of measure. I start a sort of a timer, which computes the next clock and correct the master clock. Works. Now Usine follows the extern clock. And the start of the measure is synced. The small error which occurs during 1 or 2 measures is not "hearable".

But this solution is very special and not universal to use. I hope you will get the idea to make your own solution.

After this hack, the Tenor-On can be used as Master clock and I didn't loose any syncs. My problem looks solved.

Maybe I find a more common solution to publish.

This is a problem I found on so many software solutions

Working as master they work all perfect, but driven in slave mode (only with a simple midi clock) will bring troubles. If you use usine as VST this problem does not occur, cause the VST is synched to the host clock. I tested this, I run Usine underneath of the NI Machine as VST. The Machine does sync correct to the Tenori-on and so Usine runs also perfect. But I need a setup vice versa.

BTW: The reason why I must use the Tenor-On as clock source is simple. The Tenori-On has timing issues when it must run as slave, in fact it looes also the beginning of the measures. Looks like the same problem

It should be possible to script Moebius (which I also use, but inside Usine) to send also such a sort of pseudo trigger.

Added later:

I've made a blog post and a video about the problem and it's solution. Sorry a poor video quallity, I've someone needs more Info, contact me.

http://journeytounknownsoundscapes.blogspot.de/2013/06/tenori-on-timming-again-bad-day-and_16.html

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 13 Oct 2013, 17:12

Another simple scenario – nonetheless, strangely, it's not working:
Usine (Hollyhock) should be sync'd to Reaper. Reaper sends clock via MidiYoke. BUT: I even can't select MidiYoke in the Midi driver list of Usine! Why??

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 13 Oct 2013, 17:45

hi there..

i'm using loopmidi, no problems at all..midi yoke is quite dated, might be an OS issue..

http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 13 Oct 2013, 18:16

Well, tried this, but this is the result!? Any ideas?

And btw. the reason why I want to use Hollyhock seems not to work, either:

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 13 Oct 2013, 18:46

well..it's working here..did you activate the midi yoke port in the midi setup inputs?

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 13 Oct 2013, 18:51

iococoi wrote:well..it's working here..did you activate the midi yoke port in the midi setup inputs?

Of course – thanks!

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 23 Oct 2013, 09:10

Have you try to reduce your block size ( setup/audio) ? Midi Synchro needs precision, so with a 32 block size must work..?

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 23 Oct 2013, 15:33

Well the problem must be something else (maybe in front of the screen? I don't know). Please have a look at how I set it up:

and shouldn't there be the proper input indicated if I choose "USINE" as input for the rack???

Block size is 32 (which doesn't matter since I don't receive any clock signal at all)...

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 23 Oct 2013, 16:27

yes , you have to drag your midi device on the input panel of your rack
here i use midi yoke 1 in Reaper out and use the Receive MIDI Clock patch ( library/Midi )

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 23 Oct 2013, 16:30

Hm, yes, of course I've done it like that. I'm running out of ideas...

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 23 Oct 2013, 16:33

ok, strange , was doubting about the patch you use , cause on your screenshot, i see only 1 wire from the receive outlet..?

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 23 Oct 2013, 16:36

nay-seven wrote:ok, strange , was doubting about the patch you use , cause on your screenshot, i see only 1 wire from the receive outlet..?

And it should be...? I simply dragged'n'dropped the supplied "Receive Midi Clock.pat"! Do I need to tweak it further?

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 23 Oct 2013, 16:49

To be sure, can you check if you see this in your patch..?

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 23 Oct 2013, 17:35

Yes, it's all there!

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 23 Oct 2013, 19:29

I did get it to work, but only by patching the Midi from Reaper through Midi-OX to another virtual Midi port. I haven't got any luck connecting Reaper and Usine directly.

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 24 Oct 2013, 00:47

iococoi wrote:I haven't got any luck connecting Reaper and Usine directly.

Oops, thanks! Why is this?

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 24 Oct 2013, 08:28

Oy vey..just gave it a try a again and it did work out of the box...

made a new channel "from Reaper" in loopMIDI

started Reaper and enabled and set that channel to send clock+spp

launched Usine
enabled Midi Input "From Reaper"
dragged Midi device to rack input
dragged Reveice Midi Clock to patch
started Usine
(you might have to disable/enable that MIDI input again and i did set a filter (timing clock) on the input to "clean" the signal of the SPP, but it does work without the filter.)

proof of setup:

http://screencast-o-matic.com/watch/cI6ZhJVsCN

(could we have iframes or some embed thing in the forum for video titbits?)

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 24 Oct 2013, 12:58

Yeah, everything is set up correctly here so far (I absolutely know what I'm doing, no newb here!), but there must be some underlying problems. When I just tried it again, the mouse clicks on the Receive Midi Clock rack's buttons acted strangely. E.g. couldn't switch it to "on" after a while... Still, Reaper is sending 120bpm, and Hollyhock does receive the clock now (why today?), but detecting 110bpm. Buffer size 32.

And still Receive Midi Clock's 110 equals Hollyhock's master tempo 109.63.

Maybe this helps (at the end I need to click 3 times on the play button until it reacts!):

Taysete_DJ · Unread post by **Taysete_DJ** » 24 Oct 2013, 18:29

beingmf wrote:Yeah, everything is set up correctly here so far (I absolutely know what I'm doing, no newb here!), but there must be some underlying problems. When I just tried it again, the mouse clicks on the Receive Midi Clock rack's buttons acted strangely. E.g. couldn't switch it to "on" after a while... Still, Reaper is sending 120bpm, and Hollyhock does receive the clock now (why today?), but detecting 110bpm. Buffer size 32.

And still Receive Midi Clock's 110 equals Hollyhock's master tempo 109.63.

Maybe this helps (at the end I need to click 3 times on the play button until it reacts!):

http://www.sensomusic.org/forums/upload ... MidClk.gif

I have exactly the same problem with tempo in FL studio

Most of time i use 128 bpm but in usine or hollyhoock when i wire FL and Usine the tempo is not syncronizing

usine tempo : 128 bpm (in theory) but in FL allways is a bit Less to sync like 127.60 yea

nay-seven · Unread post by **nay-seven** » 24 Oct 2013, 18:35

An other excellent one to test is Copperlan

You can also use the perfect tempo in the synchro panel settings..?

Taysete_DJ · Unread post by **Taysete_DJ** » 24 Oct 2013, 18:52

nay-seven wrote:An other excellent one to test is Copperlan

You can also use the perfect tempo in the synchro panel settings..?

Ok i will test out

lol how i didnt see it before XD

Taysete_DJ · Unread post by **Taysete_DJ** » 24 Oct 2013, 19:20

perfect sync seems to do the same here

is just a bit more

is between 0.14 - 0.28 bpm

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 24 Oct 2013, 22:31

Haha – yes, believe me, I tried everything!

Taysete_DJ · Unread post by **Taysete_DJ** » 28 Oct 2013, 14:26

i do a few of test in my pc, and i cant seem to get a stable BPM in usine

in FL studio seems like there is a problem when im working with usine, if; I use a VST, loading new samples, also changing windows, anything i do seems to change the bmp syncro in usine (some miliseconds delay)

If i dont touch anything in FL the tempo seems to be stable ...but that is not what i want

i need to work with both programs,,,

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 28 Oct 2013, 19:49

The next release (1.02.012) will have a midi clock management totally different:
- directly included into the devices.
Much more accurate and precise.

ceasless · Unread post by **ceasless** » 28 Oct 2013, 20:29

Getting seriously excited for this next release Senso

seamus · Unread post by **seamus** » 28 Oct 2013, 22:38

Woohoo!

beingmf · Unread post by **beingmf** » 29 Oct 2013, 11:02

INCREDIBLE!!!!

[when??

]

iococoi · Unread post by **iococoi** » 29 Oct 2013, 11:16

YouTube · Unread post by **senso** » 29 Oct 2013, 15:48

I know, It should have been implemented 10 years ago...
few days now...

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