Fighting with MIDI in and out: bugs or human mistakes?

[La Tenaille]

Hello,
I'm getting a bit scared about Usine's MIDI behaviours. I've had a few troubles:

1. I've dedicated a track to midi only, without any audio in and out in my patches, but I still have an audio in, gain, monitor at the top of the track and an audio out at the bottom. Is it normal?

2. Sometimes the MIDI out don't work when I open the session, and starts working after a while without any explanation.

3. Sometimes when I delete or create a wire inside a patch the Midi out doesn't work anymore (and if I check the MIDI out combo, the signal is supposed to be sent but my sound card doesn't reacts).

4. Sometimes an "internal error" appears in the state window while I'm wiring inside my MIDI patches, without any obvious consequence.

5. One time my MIDI in (corresponding to my MIDI pedal board) has ran crazy, sending random sysex and codes very quicly just because I'd added a wire from a combo to a MIDI out.

6. ... and this morning a MIDI out I use to send PCs to an external hardware is decayed. I've checked the message sent in the MIDI out combo and everything seems ok, but the PC received is decayed! (150 for 50, 151 for 51...)
It worked fine yesterday just before I closed my notebook.
I've tried my workspace on another notebook and the result is the same...

So if someone can give me clues about what I can/can't do with MIDI, I'd be very pleased!

[senso]

whaoo, all of that in a single patch!
1)-> absolutely not normal!
2,3,4,5)-> looks like a driver crash. what midi out device do you use?
6) -> can you send me your patch by mail? I need to test myself.

[Vincent]

1. I've dedicated a track to midi only, without any audio in and out in my patches, but I still have an audio in...

The same here! But it does not seem to have any consequence... I just don't care... Do we build the same buggy patches?

2. Sometimes the MIDI out don't work when I open the session, and starts working after a while without any explanation.

Same behavior here, not with MIDI out but with channels 2 to 16 of my VSTi sampler, they sometimes receive nothing. This is a random feature. You know, I don't like this one. Do we use the same buggy sampler?

4. Sometimes an "internal error" appears in the state window while I'm wiring inside my MIDI patches, without any obvious consequence.

The consequence is that a few later, Usine's patch editing behavior becomes more and more hasardous and I just have to restart the whole stuff. Are you copying my patches, realy?

5. ...sending random sysex and codes very quicly

Hmmm, not very unknown to me. I just restart everything, and it's OK (sometimes). But now, La Tenaille, I'm sure you watch my workspaces every morning!

BTW, what release do you use? Midi seems much stronger and reliable in v4, I don't know why, maybe it's just in my mind or only on my computer.
How many patches in your workspaces? 8, 10... or more than 150? Who knows what happens with more than 150 patches (with, of course, CPU and RAM = OK)?

Anyway, I decided not to fight anymore with MIDI and (m)any other stuffs. My purpose is just to play my music live, not to patch and re-patch all night long. I just choose the release which is the most convenient to me and I do with it, regardless to the truly great stuffs comming with the newets ones.
Usine is a great concept, a huge soft, and we like it very much. We have to do things with it. So let's do it. Let's trust Olivier and he will trust us. I just cannot imagine his job, could you?

[SylvainT]

Hello,

Another strange thing here, problems with KeyLearn in Sequencer Mode.
Do you have, or not.
If I make a Keylearn on a patch in sequencer mode it doesn't work. The stuff has is own yellow button, it react to the key pressed but nothing happens.
It's OK with Midilearn. But unfortunately I need keylearn.
Any ideas?

Regards

Sylvain

[Vincent]

Hello Sylvain,

The key (from keyboard) and buttons (on controllers) may have a different behaviour.
On what control is this? What is it supposed to do?

[SylvainT]

Hello Vincent,

In fact it is simple, just control a reverse! It work well in grid mode....

Sylvain

[senso]

bug solved in the next version 4.01

[La Tenaille]

Hi everybody,
First of all, my PC decay problem is fixed this morning and starts working normaly again. I've changed nothing till my last post... still scared, can't imagine such a trouble the day of a performance!
The other troubles are hazardous, will probably be back one day.

what midi out device do you use?
can you send me your patch by mail?

I've followed your friends choices and bought a RME Fireface 400. I've bought a notebook dedicated to Usine: a core2duo with only XP SP3, RME driver and 4 VST plug-ins. Can't be simpler...
I have 3 patches in one track dedicated to MIDI. I send you a simplified version of my whole worspace

Do we build the same buggy patches?
Do we use the same buggy sampler?
Are you copying my patches, realy?
I'm sure you watch my workspaces every morning!

Ok, ok, now you can turn of your webcam

what release do you use?

I keep updating each time a new release is out. My Usine is up to date

How many patches in your workspaces?

I use 10 very simple audio patches (direct audio in to audio out and a few VST FX) and 3 midi patches on one dedicated track configured in "all" mode (one for the lyrics, 1 for the PC and 1 for the CC)

Anyway, I decided not to fight anymore with MIDI

I don't use MIDI to play music, just to remote Usine for the lyrices and my 3 hardware devices: a pedal board (Roland FC-300), a guitar effect processor (Roland VG-99) and a voice processor (TC Electronic VoiceLive)

Usine is a great concept, a huge soft, and we like it very much. We have to do things with it.

I agree, I tell all my friends the big problem with usine is you're completely free, and that gives me vertigo! But I need to translate my "old" hardware set to fit this new set. I can't wipe the whole thing. I need everything to be very reliable on stage.

So let's do it. Let's trust Olivier and he will trust us. I just cannot imagine his job, could you?

This is my second vertigo

Another strange thing here, problems with KeyLearn in Sequencer Mode.

I'm helpless here, I don't use the sequencer.

Thanks for your help

[Vincent]

still scared, can't imagine such a trouble the day of a performance! The other troubles are hazardous, will probably be back one day.

Thats software!!

Just kidding... Olivier sometimes needs to test our patches. Just send it to him. His patching is almost always more clean and efficient than ours!
When you have many non-working stuffs like this, try fist to identify the guilty track, then the guilty patch. It may take time... There are three approaches: a. delete (or replace by neutral) them one by one; b. rebuild from scratch, adding patches one by one; c. test them one by one in an empty WKP (master section cleared). It depends on how your WKP is worked out.
Even if you don't find any bug, this is always usefull! I use to learn new stuffs doing this.
Good luck!

I tell all my friends the big problem with usine is you're completely free

That's the point. So completely free that we make many mistakes. Just a detail, sometimes, but with consequences we don't immediatly understand.
It seems to me that we can use Usine in a more complex way than any other modular soft, including Max/MSP... and maybe sometimes we don't even realize it!
Show me your workspace and I'll tell you how crazy you are!

[La Tenaille]

try fist to identify the guilty track

radical

Olivier's just given me some clues by mail, crossing yours on some points.
I'll try to do some wiping to identify the faulty patch. The trouble is I can't spend a lot of time on Usine for the moment.
Thanks

[AndrewChi]

I seem to have a similar problem.
After some time (usually 15min or so) , I get all kinds of strange midi data
when I touch one of my midi controllers (handsonic drum pads/ewi4000 wind controller/fcb1010 footcontroller).
I think I also fixed it! (for now)

It seems Usine uses the not quite well programmed Microsoft midi driver (not sure)
which cannot handle complex midi messages I guess (aftertouch and so on).

So I open Cubase, select another asiodriver than Usine is using (Asio4all)
and route all the midi to midi-yoke.
Back in usine I select only midi in from midi yoke
and.... problem solved.
cubase uses some sort of emulation to get the midi information right,
and that's what you need!!!
First start usine, then cubase!!!!

downside is that you lose some cpu power I guess....

maybe my explanation is somewhat wrong at some points,
but the big point is it works!

needless to say usine is by far the best program I ever used.

[gurulogic]

Hmm..I've had midi oddities too but nothing that I can confirm as I have always assumed it must have been something I was doing, or a bad plugin. I'll try and keep better track.

[Wiskow]

I have MIDI In lag problems.
I play the keyboard and notes will play at very random times. Some notes do sound right away.
My problem happens about 15min or so after I restart Usine. Sooner some times.
I experience no MIDI problems when I use FLStudio.

MIDI-OX monitor shows MIDI-ON and OFF messages always happening at the correct time (when I am pressing the keys).
Usine's own MIDI monitor shows the messages when received and plays the note.

It is somewhere in between where MIDI-OX shows messages received and Usine receiving them that the lag happens. If it is a bad Windows driver like AndrewChi suggested then why isn't it a problem when I run other programs?

My setup:
Windows XP SP3 Home
DuoCore Intel 1.79gh
3g ram

Midi Keyboard
Edirol UM-1SX (reinstalled latest drivers)
M-Audio FastTrack (5.10)

Usine V4.22d (free)
ASIO v2.9 Beta3

In the patches I have many VST instruments loaded.

[Wiskow]

I found a work around that works for me. Knock on wood!
I use MIDI-OX to route the Edirol MIDI to MIDI-Yoke and set MIDI-Yoke as my MIDI IN for Usine.

[AndrewChi]

With the latest version I have far less MIDI problems,
except with my Akai EWI, which sends a lot of controller information like breath, volume, aftertouch, glide on off, ...
I still have the problem.
After 20 min or so, it starts playing by itself. All kinds of weird notes. It even outputs it to the midi out and my external
module (micromodular) starts flashing too. Quitting Usine and restarting the software gives me another 20 minutes of EWI MIDI joy.
The midi-yoke solution works, but of course it would be swell to stay just in Usine standalone...

[amiga909]

not 100% convinced this is Usines fault alone. i had weird stuff going with virtual midi drivers too.
try reinstalling+updating your midi driver? or try with a better midi interface, this can make a massive difference in midi performance.

thought about making a patch for the EWI to reduce the midi load and to better exploit the control possibilities.
bit i wasnt able to figure out more ideas than quantizing breath control messages and filtering them if no note is active - this can be done in 5min with the modules we already got.
more ideas for an EWI controller patch?

[AndrewChi]

Well, now Im doing fairly basic stuff. Just a sampler with a breath controlled LPfilter to get that distinctive blowing sound and a preset system to get the right sample at the right pitch.
Also experimenting with the autoharmonyII script, which is supernice but also hangs once in a while
Does the panic button work with you guys? It doesn't seem to work with me...
I have no problems using the EWI as a controller in both Reaper and CubaseSX2. I have a dedicated MOTU midi interface and an RME Hammerfall Multiface II interface, so it's unlikely that the problem is hardware related.
I also tried to filter out every unnecessary data both in Usine with the midi filter AND on the EWI hardware controller itself.
I guess then it's a matter of note on-off. Could it be true that a breath controller has a slightly different note on-off behaviour?
I'm a little bit puzzled at that part.
But for now I'm ok with MIDI yoke. The reason why I think the problem is still Usine related, is that I used to have this problem on ALL my midi controllers (Handsonic, BCR2000, FCB1010) and since the latest update everything works fine except for the more complex EWI...
Any ideas welcome!
Amiga909, you are an EWI player too? Would be nice too share some ideas on this fantastic instrument!

[nofish]

Does the panic button work with you guys? It doesn't seem to work with me...

Doesn't work here also when I get (very rare) hanging notes.
My "solution" right now is muting the Master out and pressing wildly the keys on my Midi keyboard to trigger another note off for the hanging note(s). Not good in a live situation.

A fix would be nice.

[amiga909]

the panic button works here (not checked in the newest version thu)
eventually the note closer script may be an alternative
http://www.sensomusic.com/wiki/doku.php ... %20scripts

[Wiskow]

I was using USINE the other day for a good 30min. I am playing the MIDI keyboard plugged into the computer using a VST patch as my sound module. After about a 10 second delay the last few measure I just played replay them selves automatically.

I check MIDI-OX's output monitor but it didn't report any extra note played.
Usine Free 4.22d

[amiga909]

my first suspicion would be a kind of midi feedback with virtual midi drivers.
Usine is a bit tricky concerning midi In modules cause the virtual numbers dont show directly which midi device is used .
- make sure ur Usine midi setup is alright.
- start midiox AFTER usine cause midiOx will report if a midi port is already in use.
- get rid (proper uninstall) of virtual midi ports if possible (try again). i've encountered strange things with yoke..

[Wiskow]

I am confident that USINE setup is correct and that I haven't created a MIDI loop.
My latest results suggest that the problem may have something to do with windows drivers and how USINE uses them.

First, I am routing my MIDI in device (EDIROL UM-1) into MIDI-OX then map that to Maple MIDI out Port 1 and finally I set USINE MIDI In to be Maple MIDI. Maple MIDI is like MIDI Yoke, I am using it because for some reason Yoke didn't stay installed on my computer. Over all I am doing this MIDI routing because original it solved my problem of randomly generated MIDI notes.

For debugging purposes I inserted a midi-out module in my patch that contains a Piano VST. I set this to MIDI out to Maple Port 2 being careful not to create a loop. With MIDI-OX I monitored the input and output MIDI. I started playing and after about 30min the symptoms of random midi notes began. The following picture of MIDI-OX shows the results.



Monitor - Input shows what is coming into MIDI-OX. The "In" column is the MIDI ports, (5=EDIROL UM-1,2=Maple MIDI in Port 2) Pressing a key on the MIDI keyboard created the Note On with a time stamp (000B8084). This Midi message made it to USINE and sounded the right note.
When I released the key it created a Note Off with the time stamp (000BC42E).
Note that both these message appear in Monitor - Output exactly the same. The "Port" column is the output port used (2= Maple MIDI out Port 1)
Under Monitor Input the messages with "IN" = 2 are the messages I get back from USINE. Normally they are exactly the same as the other messages coming from the Midi Keyboard.
However, when things go crazy they don't match as in the picture.
To put it all together,
I push down on a key and a MIDI message is transmitted for that key, somehow a Note Off message is created for a different note and time stamp. I then release the key and the correct MIDI message is sent, somehow another message is created this time a Note ON for yet another key. Note at the top of the picture is the MIDI in module showing the last message correspond to the last message MIDI-OX got back.

SO.....this means somewhere in between MIDI-OX and USINE is the problem.
It could be the MAPLE MIDI.
But, I got weird MIDI problems when I didn't use MIDI-OX and mapped Edirol UM-1 directly into USINE.
So it must be something else.
Note that when I use FLSTUDIO or a stand alone NI instrument with the MIDI Keyboard I never have a problem.
So, my best guess is it is something of a combination of USINE, windows xp, and time.

Two more things.
-Closing and reopening Usine or reassigning the MIDI- IN fixes the problem till next time.
-Today it continued to keep working for the full hour I played. I even played the same stuff that seemed to trigger it last time.

[gurulogic]

I think the midi part of Usine still needs some work...? I too have had strange things happen with midi in Usine, but mostly geenerated internally from vsti's.